Mindful Masculinity Unveiled: The Journey of Masterful Listening with Special Guest Will Schneider

Speaker 1 Welcome, masterful listeners. So happy to have you joining today. It's a very special episode because I have a very special guest, Will Schneider. He's the co-host of an incredible podcast called Men Talking Mindfulness. And we're gonna get into a conversation about listening and masterful listening and how it relates to men being able to listen. How do men listen? What are some of the things that have prevented men from being masterful listeners? And hopefully at the end of our conversation, you'll have some really great tools and ideas for how you can become a masterful listener if you are a man. And if you're not, we all have

Speaker 1 men in our lives. So hopefully this will serve all of us. So let's dive in.

Speaker 2 It's an honor to be here, and thank you so much for this opportunity to talk about masterful listening because I think it's it's a skill that is definitely needs to be amplified in every culture, every person, uh, every conversation. Uh and yeah, it's just great to be here. Thank you. Thank you.

Speaker 1 All right. Well, were you ever taught, by the way, how to like listen as a kid?

Speaker 2 Uh, you know, I uh no, not not at all, really. Uh I mean not to literally, I think that should be something that's taught at a very, very, very young age because that's how incredibly important it is. Like to actually have a class or part of a class, like maybe an English class if you want to be, you know, or you know, if you want to be great at reading or or you know, understanding English, then you should find a way to listen to English or listen to another language, you know. It's so important and it's not it's not built in, but it's like but it's

Speaker 2 the other half of speaking, is listening. You know, the the part of communication is listening. So it's not all about what you're saying, it's about how are you listening. And so yeah, it's it's it's I wish I wish we could let's do another episode on how we could uh re-uh structure our school system to actually work for society and people.

Speaker 1 So uh, amen. And literally, that's what I've been saying. We're taught how to read, we're taught how to write, we're taught how to speak. When was the last time you took a listening course? Uh for me, I was 29 in coaching school. And I thought, holy shit, if children learned how to breathe and listen. Oh my God. So that's actually why I was like, fuck it. Finally, I'm just starting the listening school. And I want to do a kids' one too, actually. I thought it'd be cool to have a season for just children and maybe their parents of, hey, this is what happens when you're having

Speaker 1 a moment of feelings and you can't focus, right? It's funny how often we were in class and it was like kids weren't listening, adults, I struggled listening in relationships. Okay, before we go off here, because we're about to dive, here is who Will Schneider is. Okay, so whether it's in the studio or on a retreat, maybe in a corporate conference room or within a virtual setting, Will Schneider has been teaching yoga, meditation, uh, mindfulness for over 14 years in New York City. What's up, New York? Uh, and now globally, I mean, you've been all over the world. And in 2017, you were publicly recognized as one

Speaker 1 of the top 10 teachers in New York City's yoga world, which is amazing. So congrats on that. Uh now to further broadcast and spread awareness about, you know, the teaching of mindfulness in 2020, Will teamed up with retired Navy SEAL commander John McCaskill. That sounds so strong. I love it. And they launched the Men Talking Mindfulness podcast, which currently ranks in the 2.5% globally. That was super cool to read. Uh, the goal of the show is to help men and all people understand the essence of mindfulness and learn how to integrate these practices into our lives. How amazing! Uh, Will is a certified ambassador of compassion

Speaker 1 through the Stanford University's medical school. His background and experience also includes a BS in biology from King's College, two 200 yoga teacher certifications. And oh, I meant to ask you this before. Tell me how I'm pronouncing this.

Speaker 3 Yeah, Gary. Katona, katona.

Speaker 1 Oh, see, okay, katona yoga teacher training, which I want you to tell us what that is, because I actually, as a yogi, didn't know that that specific term. And then multiple vipassana meditations, breath work, and numerous psychedelic journeys. Cool. So that's our guest. Welcome again, officially.

Speaker 2 Great to be here.

Speaker 1 What's Katona yoga training?

Speaker 2 Katona yoga is just an it's another philosophy of yoga in which they have worked very hard. I mean, this this um the teachers that founded this, uh, one in particular, and then another woman joined shortly thereafter. They've been uh at uh breaking down the yoga practice in a different way that helps to align the body uh using uh the magic square, which is pretty interesting, sacred geometry. Um and uh it's just a it's just a way of accessing the body that you don't get from the kind of linear practices of uh like a Shitanga or typical flow classes. So it's been very informative. It helps me

Speaker 2 to really understand the body in a way that is uh very holistic, like from the feet all the way to the crown of the head and everything in between. Um and it just it's helped yeah, it just helps me help my students um access their body in a way that uh a lot of traditional yoga practices um they just don't it just is not it's not available because it just um it's you know it's like an upgrade to to the yoga that's been done 5,000 years ago. It's a necessary upgrade. And um, you know, I love um I don't I just really enjoy uh teaching it.

Speaker 2 I it it's like you really gotta listen in this class when you take from this particular instructor because she speaks in metaphors which are very uh interesting way of like teaching um and uh and and receiving as a student. So yeah, it's been super helpful, you know, uh for me as a teacher just to expand what I'm teaching, how I'm teaching, and and the information that I can give and uh experiences I can give to students.

Speaker 1 Oh my gosh, I'm so sold. I love it. It's cool. I told you, I think a few weeks ago when we were actually just kind of still getting to know each other because we'd actually met at Stanford in this compassion program that I mentioned, which was such, I mean, a multi-dimensional experience in so many ways. But uh I was a bikram yogi. Like that was my path, very different. And then I got certified in like a power yoga, which I guess bikram is more of like a Hatha yoga. So you like hold poses. And again, I know about yoga, but you've like been in this world

Speaker 1 of ringing.

Speaker 2 I mean, New York City, like the yoga community must be this whole city is amazing for everything, you know, like the best restaurant. I'm so spoiled. My palate is so spoiled. It's so you know, like I can't go anywhere, like, oh, this is you know, I'll go somewhere, but it's like this is great food. I'm like, I don't know, I don't think it's that good. You know, and same thing with kind of yoga and anything that's here, like you know, the best teachers are here or come here, you know. So I'm able to work learn and and uh work with them or uh on uh cr

Speaker 2 quite often when I want to. So it's just nice to be and put myself in a place that just has so much talent and so much wisdom that's built into that talent. Um and I get to have access to it so I can be, you know, more of a servant leader for the people that need these practices because it's you know like uh the mental health crisis is real, and a lot of these tools um that we'll talk about, not just listening, but like you know, my resume is helps to alleviate a lot of that suffering.

Speaker 1 Yeah, we have a mental health epidemic. That's why my I say I'm a mental wealth advocate. His after my own experiences, it was like when things are not okay with my mind, I cannot function in any way. And I truly feel like it that's wealth. Like our health is our wealth. Listening, I really truly I keep saying this because I mean it. I feel like it's the most important skill. I was just telling my partner, we were driving, and I was like, I feel like now that I've started truly observing, and that's the mindfulness part, like my own even instant reaction to a look, like a

Speaker 1 feeling. And I'm like, oh, we are always misunderstanding each other. Like I went on a date last night for the first time in years, and I was thinking about this because I was like, that's a dude. I'm I was like, I'm gonna masterfully listen. So I've been practicing these things I've been talking about. Funny enough, your podcast is the only one ever that I've listened to other than mine consistently, meaning like multiple episodes, which, funny enough, yeah, I have a podcast. You think I'm no, I'm not listening actually to a ton. It's hard for me to listen to a lot of information out there because, first

Speaker 1 of all, we all have different tastes and styles. So that actually is a great way for me. Let me introduce how I'd love for you all to listen today. And actually, I want you to chime in too, because I want to co-create with you. So, my intention actually for today is kind of just totally improvise in the flow, both a mindfulness journey, because I always say it's what you also are experiencing, right? Like whoever's listening out there, hello, I don't know where you are, I don't know who you are, but you're here for some reason. And the first thing I always say is in the school,

Speaker 1 I invite you to listen, but first check in, do you really want to? Is this a good time? Are you genuinely curious right now? Because if not, turn it off and come back. Like this is a school, it's a place to like also catch every time you're distracted. Masterful listening means you're listening to our words. If you're watching the video, pay attention to our mannerisms, what is said, what's not said. Will has a different tone than me. He speaks at a different pace. That's cool. Notice what that's like. Pay attention and from a place of genuine curiosity. And every time you catch yourself distracted, well, cool,

Speaker 1 just bring yourself back. Come back. You can always come back. That's the practice. Um, what else did I want to say about today? Oh, yes. So I use metaphors a lot too. So I love that you said that about um katona. Is that right? Got it. Um, visuals, they just really help. So uh what I worked on at Stanford was actually my compassion pill project was like a meditation elevator through the chakras, through the body to just like connect in a moment of overwhelm. But I like to kind of do that at the beginning, and I love you guys always do that on your show. It's

Speaker 1 like, let's have a moment of just breathing. And so it'd be cool if you guided us perhaps through just a moment of that, and then anything else you want to add as like a flavor to the masterful listening invitation that I always try to invite at the end of the day.

Speaker 2 I think what you're what you're hitting on right now, we're gonna do in just a couple moments with the breathing is essential. Like if your mind is racing and you're all jacked up on anxiety and stress, then you're you don't have the ability to listen because your mind is trying to continually distract you and grab your attention, right? But just by but calming down, and this is something I have like you know in in my notes for today, and just all my notes almost everywhere. It's like, you know, what's the what's the first step? It's like get to calm. And once you get to calm, like

Speaker 2 what comes online? You're like you want to be, you know, the masterful part of you comes online because we already have so much of this biological brilliance already inside of us, right? But how do we access it? The easiest way to access it is just to slow things down. What's the easiest way to slow things down is to find your breath, and we get into that relaxed state of being and mind and body and being present to the moment. Um, that's when you're, you know, that's when curiosity comes on because it comes with the calm, it comes with being connected to yourself and the world as

Speaker 2 it is. You know, the curiosity lights up, you know, creativity comes online. And um so many wonderful things happen when you just start to calm down and you actually improve your ability to listen because you're because you're present, because you're here. You know, you're not being you know drugged into the future by your anxiety or drugged into the past with you know your guilt and shame and whatever else is going on emotionally with you. And that's what the mind's gonna do. It's always gonna take you into one of these two places. Um so instead of listening to your ego and the fiction of your mind or

Speaker 2 going into the past or rushing into the future, uh, let's just take a couple breaths right now and um and just calm down. So we'll do something called a parachute breath. Um, so we're gonna take like a really like a big and kind of swift inhale, really trying to fill the breath really deep. And we're gonna take a long, slow exhale out the mouth, like really, really elongate that exhale, and I'll guide us through this. We'll just do three and just see how you feel. So let's take a moment now and maybe just close your eyes. And I just want you to feel your experience right

Speaker 2 now, not like judging yourself, but just you know, observing, you know, what's your emotional experience right now? What what is it? Just just check in with that and even start to find your breath now so you can you know focus on something so you can just step into that observer witness role. And um and let's take those first those breaths. So we're gonna it's gonna sound like this. We're gonna take a nice big inhale and exhale really slowly out the mouth. And it's like a parachute breath. It's like imagine your parachute floating slowly and gently down to the earth. Again, another breath in. Ow, E's really

Speaker 2 low. Really slow. Keep going.

Speaker 4 Do it again in and then slowly exhale for the kind of eight, seven, six, keep going. Five, four, three, one, let's do two more in.

Speaker 4 One more time, in

Speaker 4 two.

Speaker 2 See if anything has changed. It's those few breaths. It's okay if anything hasn't. But it's nice to check in with yourself and listen. You know, is the listening starts from the inside out. If I can feel my body and be more in this relaxed state of being and understand, right, by listening and touching and getting on the inside what this does to me, then maybe I might maybe you're gonna be more inclined to do that later on, right? Or take those breaths, calm down. So there we are.

Speaker 1 Well, that was super powerful for me. And I feel like since I actually just did that, I want to share something else. And this is so perfect. So that's the lens. Breathe. Like, even as you're listening today, we're gonna be talking about some stuff that I think could actually be super intense for people. And I say that all the time. I actually really want to create a space where we can have real difficult conversations, like safe spaces to look at relationships and like the impact of what's happened when you haven't been heard or you like for me, that's been my biggest trigger when I'm trying to

Speaker 1 connect with someone and I can tell they're distracted. It literally makes me feel like I'm like a little girl again who's like abandoned by her father. Literally, when you understand actually how triggers work and psychology works, we're having these moments all the time. What helps me is to breathe. So that was just an intense example. But I've done a lot of work around that. So when you just guided us through that, I felt first I was like, oh, I love breathing. Why don't I do this? So I noticed that thought. And then by like the third one, I was like into it, thinking this is great.

Speaker 1 And then you threw in two more, right? Did I make that up? Cool.

Speaker 2 It's not gonna hurt you to breathe more. You'll take a little, you know? Yes.

Speaker 1 Mm-mm. Mm-hmm. That's the thing. Like, this is like probably the best addiction quote if you're gonna like do something and commit to it. I think addiction has a more negative connotation, but you get what I'm saying. Like, you're never gonna be like, oh, I breathed too much mindfully today, unless you have an expectation of it that it's supposed to be something, which is the other part of what happened. Then I was like, whoa, I'm actually live on a podcast right now. My eyes are closed. Should I open it? I got in my mind and I knew, oh, that's normal. I think I was afraid to meditate

Speaker 1 because I thought either you are like you're you have to click into this like totally like zen, no thought place. And then when you are anxious, you don't want to stay there. And through the time I've practiced, it's like, no, that's normal. Just come back. So that's listening to this is a meta meditation. Will and I have never recorded this before. We kind of planned, but we didn't really. So this is live. And I'm gonna invite you as well and me to masterfully listen to each other because our whole topic is men and listening and how men listen and how women listen, and how do we

Speaker 1 listen to each other? How do we not? Maybe what would be great to know? Like if you could hear the truth, something, I don't know, raw, real. What is it? Your guys' uh uh slogan, raw, real uncommon. No, I did that backwards. Oh my right, yeah, so good. I was like, that just I liked that energy. So so is this in a way. This is a a chance to notice how you're feeling. If you get overwhelmed, cool, pause it, breathe, or keep breathing, turn it off. Allow yourself to listen today from a place of real raw vulnerability within yourself. Meaning, like really think in those moments

Speaker 1 when we're speaking and and and feel into what's happening. Have you been there? Have I felt that? Can I relate? But then as soon as you catch that thought, come back and listen. Cause I invite you for this experience to just be here. I'm a note taker though. So sometimes when I'm inspired, I have a piece of paper just because Will says shit like uh get to calm. And I think we're gonna have a t-shirt collection by the end of the episode. You really do. You have a way, and I like this about you. I think I'm kind of good at this too. You can put

Speaker 1 these mantras, these simple, you're not even trying to do it, I don't think, but it it's it's yeah, get to calm, and then the masterful part comes live. And what I thought then was so many people are like, no, I gotta crank into this mastery. I love that bigness, and yet it's always the slowing down that gets me there.

Speaker 2 Be present, right? All I mean, all the things like, yeah, I mean, all the teachings, right? All the teachings from the great masters, it's just like simplify, distill, get to the essential, get to the essence, like let go, you know, like it's it's like reduce, reduce, reduce, reduce, more and more simplify. So yeah.

Speaker 1 Simplicity is genius. I always say it's one of like I have 10 favorite quotes. I have a lot of them. That was Albert Einstein, but that was a cool realization one day where I'm like, okay, I really my journey was like Taoism first. I'm super grateful someone handed me the Tao. It's right here. I had I've had this book for 20 years and it's like tattered. That was like my first introduction to like, oh, interesting way of living. And then Buddhism. I mean, honestly, even Judaism, every religious, every spiritual, every like guru type of human I've heard pretty much says the same thing.

Speaker 2 Like at the end of the day, it's been like uh love, but like uh more like the the in-between, the emptiness versus this, you know, it's there's themes, yeah, and they're very similar across like the 13 most uh you know uh prominent religious practices or spiritual practices today. Like it's all there, it's all there.

Speaker 1 13. I love that you said that number. That's my number. Uh I'm gonna also invite nothing else. I think we're good. Okay, we're diving in. No. Anything else, Will? You're ready? Okay, where do you want to begin? And also, I presented the sort of topic as a conversation around like how men listen. Can you say more? Like if you had to say what the topic was, because actually we haven't even confirmed the title yet. I'm gonna do that with AI after. But how would you say what we're talking about, like the essence?

Speaker 2 I mean it's again, I mean, uh, as far as like with men, it it's you know, this is uh, you know, why, why, why it's important for men to to learn to listen, you know, or something like that. I mean, that's like I mean, because it's like there's a lot of, you know, because of the podcast and all the research I do for continually for the show, there's a lot of patterns of behaviors that um that men express. Um and uh and it's and it's not necessarily for their benefit, it's actually for their detriment and detriment of their family, their society, their relationships. Um, you know,

Speaker 2 and and one of those is kind of like you know, always trying. to provide solutions or give answers or you know fix things or something like that. And therefore it's like when typically men, and I used to be this way, and I know a lot of men that are still like this, you know, in my life and in my family, it's like, you know, they're they're not really just listening to what's that they some often are listening to what's being said, but listening and in the background they're trying to fix or they're trying to put themselves in what's being spoken of instead of just l listening

Speaker 2 to what is actually just being said instead of trying to put your put themselves into um you know what that person is saying. Or trying like often a lot of uh what happens with men quite often is men um because there's like a lot of men are just very if you get to a man that can really listen I think you're talking to a man that has a good sense of himself and a good sense of self-confidence. Because I don't give a fuck what the outcome is of whatever that person's saying it just it's not it's just not yeah it's so hot.

Speaker 1 Seriously just oh my last night and I told him that that was cool too. When someone's really listening genuinely and you feel they're interested yeah uh that's attractive.

Speaker 2 A and B it's just actually it feels good to want to listen to of course I mean it's like because I think that's one thing you know as I was going through you know what we're gonna talk about today a little bit it's like listening comes from the heart. Like that's where that's where because you're connecting at the heart level right when when you're really genuinely listening to the other person without trying to fix their problem or try to you know compete with them in some way. I mentioned transactional before in the sense of like a lot of men show up as like oh what's this

Speaker 2 what can this guy do for me or what can I get from this person right instead of being it's like oh there's another human being and you know um and and let's just communicate let's connect on a meaningful heartfelt level instead of it just transactionally through the ego I have to write that listening is from the heart because that's so true.

Speaker 1 I mean that's where because listening but it feels like it's and by the way I'm gonna try not to interrupt today I just want to call myself out that's a big listening thing too too. I always also say something really funny at some point like mess up my words and I always say to the audience think about that how often do you mess something up or someone says something wrong like this is all we're I think we're almost afraid sometimes to speak because of how we do that and it's the same thing. Like listening can also be super vulnerable like looking at someone making eye contact

Speaker 1 uh showing someone you care as a man that's what the thing is is I was thinking how is it different from men versus from women?

Speaker 2 You know it's like in some level I think we're all humans and yet men and women are such different uh beings do you know what I mean say something about that because specifically we're talking about men and of course well no at a very young age um women are allowed to express their feelings have their feelings talk about their feelings you know like uh dive into their feelings you know they have you know um you know a lot of women that I know it's like and and when I hear I mean I wish sometimes I could be a fly in the wall hit listen to women

Speaker 2 speak it's like you guys just talk about everything sometimes right which is great and I'm not saying that's good or bad it just is men right we're usually shoved in a box and are aren't are only allowed to express ourselves in certain ways right uh express ourselves in through the roles of like provider protector conqueror is typically uh the way that we express ourselves so it's like how much we're like all the wonderful things that we have you know what I mean we'll talk about our stuff we'll talk about our accolades you know we'll talk about our job we'll talk about how we're climbing the corporate

Speaker 2 ladder we'll talk about like how big our muscles are from going to the gym all the time and just like this brota talk about sports right and this is just never from that hard place never like come from that place like hey how are you doing? What's going on with you? Right so I think there's also an ignorance that is injected in and not just not just men in America like this has been pervasive this is pervasive of in almost every culture with men. And the ignorance comes from like we're locked in a way of ex a certain and limited way of expressing ourselves. So therefore

Speaker 2 at a very young age we're not used or or we're not we don't have the accessibility to talk about our feelings or because we didn't even understand them because they've been locked away for so long because we're not allowed to bring them out because we're shamed often for talking about something that might be require vulnerability is a great word. I mean it's like that's to just be hurt to just speak from a place of like authenticity and vulnerability and really honestly express like how you're feeling what you're doing or even an idea you have or something like that. You know it's like it's it's around the

Speaker 2 playground as a young man as a young boy it's like you know it just it's it's sad like how the the programming that's been going on for you know centuries uh even thousands of years uh but it's starting to change um but uh this is I think one of the reasons that we're we're like emotionally and and and verbally and emotion yeah emotionally stunted yeah so therefore it's like how do we express ourselves one thing we often talk about uh on the show or it's like we're trying to raise the emotional literacy of our uh of our our male audience mostly male audience but also develop

Speaker 2 that EQ that you know emotional intelligence to know how I'm feeling and if you can't put a word on how you're feeling then how are you going to express it? Right? But what does it take to get into that place of uh of of to know know thyself and know those feelings is to get to calm to relax to to to be okay with whatever that sensation is you're having your body because you've been wanting to like you know like because you're so fucking angry or whatever and you and you haven't been able to hold it in so what do you do you go out and

Speaker 2 drink or you get violent in some ways or you like you know consume all sorts of negative content and go down that rabbit hole because it kind of you know you're matching energy with somebody else and it's it's just it's wild out there in the men's world but more and more men are like are are realizing like fuck I've been suffering unnecessarily for way too long uh and then they start turning in this direction. You know masterful listening is a fantastic place to start because if you really want to be a masterful listener you got to start listening to yourself. You got to start listening to

Speaker 2 you know that those those like ideas or those voices that have been nagging you for a long time are like hey what about this or why are we going to go and do this what about that instead of just pushing them away.

Speaker 1 So there's there's I'm so glad this is recorded. I mean really you do have a way of at least for me right I can't tell how anyone else listens to you but just listening that feels so true and it honestly makes me feel so much compassion for men. It really does feel really unfair uh I think there's also of course on there's always the other side I think also women are like oh emotion I mean I'm I have four planets and cancer I'm truly the most emotional being most humans ever meet on the planet to the point where I've had to learn people just cannot feel

Speaker 1 like me nor do I want them to actually so that balance of first what you said I just want to reflect back because I also the coach in me does that as well it's so important to get this you can't express something you don't know and not understanding what's happening like for me I say I've had all kinds of experiences that were challenging and even around mental health but like anxiety is my least favorite. I'll be depressed rather than anxious because anxiety spinning in your head fear your body feels anxiety and what helped me finally was a somatic Buddhist therapist friend now Dharma teacher who got

Speaker 1 me instantly he just said Svet let's go breathe tell me where you feel it and I was really pissed because all of my own masculine perhaps energy or just anger whatever the point is getting into the body ooh someone's on a bike I love it I feel like that's the but that's cool that's I grew up in New York too trust me it's funny I'm still like it's so quiet in Saucelito which I like but um the other thing you said and I think this would be cool to do this just came to me tell me if you think this would be fun because I was

Speaker 1 driving home the other night it was like two in the morning I haven't been up that late in a decade I am not a go out to a club but it was a really good friend's birthday and she loves that world and I thought you know what Svet get dressed like just do it you know it feels good to show up she's a great freaking listener. So shout out to Hannah truly I even asked her the other day I said are you genuinely this curious and thoughtful or are you trying? Because I've had to try. I've had a lot of people tell me you're selfish you're

Speaker 1 not a good listener. You're also super masculine again that's been a really interesting thing and yet uh she's just like that. And whether you have to work on it more or less, it is something you can improve. That's what I've seen. It's like whoa it's hard work but like anything that's worth doing is hard. So how would fun would this be? You said man I wish I could just like be a fly on the wall for some of these conversations. So I think we should do a little game where if you could be a fly on the wall and really ask women something that most men

Speaker 1 don't, what is that? I'll answer it for all the women and I want to do that with you because not having clarity when I'm in my head about what is he thinking? Does he like me? What does that mean? That has caused me truly more pain in my life my relationships with men where I didn't have clarity. I showed up horribly I mean I've been known to raise my voice too and show aggression because I didn't get taught funny enough how to deal with my feelings I was actually growing up my parents did this really well uh Russian Jews in Brooklyn come on it was like

Speaker 1 you're strong you got this you do that which is cool I'm super confident I've always been but on an emotional level I needed a hug and for someone to say oh you're sad that's normal cry instead of stop crying that's that's right so I think and I wonder who has parents now who like are better and honestly it's happening. I think because of people like you and me who are trying to at least I said thank God I didn't have kids yet I was just worried about passing along that what my mom frankly did to me and shout out mom I love you we've talked about

Speaker 1 this a lot a lot you can't give what you don't know and it's never too late to learn hence why it's like can anyone learn mindfulness and breathing at any age do you think?

Speaker 2 Of course you of course if you have a if you have a a good brain meaning like you're not in some sort of cognitive decline or something or absolutely you can but it takes practice and it just starts with one simple thing and maybe that could be the breathing maybe that could be journaling your thoughts and and to kind of get into your emotional space a little bit like there's so many different things you can do but like you have to start with having that conversation with yourself and really being with yourself as you are and starting where you are because you know people think of

Speaker 2 you know when they go on mindfulness they're just gonna be like oh my God I'm finally going to get to that piece I've always wanted I'm like no like I mean yeah there'll be moments you're gonna you're gonna face a lot of shit that's coming up right because like because you you haven't been working on yourself for 40 years or 50 years or whatever 30 years right so it's just like oh so um you're gonna be battling that ego and I'll keep mentioning it because it's like when ego has domin dominated your entire existence and continue has like and you just keep running the same program

Speaker 2 over and over uh in the background uh it's gonna come up with a lot of nefarious ways in order to continually assume that control especially when you're trying to take control of yourself.

Speaker 1 So it's uh yeah well that that's the what the ego does and it is control and we do by the way as human beings I think we're kind of spirit in human form but the truth is the ego is all about control. The ego is trying to protect us sometimes you need a sprinkle of it and yet of course it's gonna fight I was in the shower yesterday and I was like I had this mantra come in of uh hold on I want to get it right I was thinking about resistance because I had to record an episode and I wanted to but I didn't want

Speaker 1 to and I was going in this like why is there's resistance I felt it in my chest and I thought okay persist through the resist because if you resist the resist it grows and I was like that's what breathing is it was like a summary of just persist through that like you're uncomfortable keep breathing keep going and then once you know how for me once I start like once I put my butt in the chair I can do it. But sometimes getting in that chair like for me sitting funny enough I had trouble meditating I really I did for a while and then I always said

Speaker 1 okay five minutes a day is better than like an hour once a week because then you build the habit like the cold plunging I do. So I needed to like find a way to meditate without it being just I sit in a chair to meditate. I was like could I wash the dishes and feel the the warm water on or you know wait in line to pay and not be on my phone and just count. So that's the other thing what is like the simplest way that if someone's listening to this and they're like you know what I've tried this and I don't know but like

Speaker 1 how do I really do it it sounds simple but like they've been doing it what's like the easiest way for someone to just play with it today to play listening or enjoying mindfulness or no to play with mindfulness because we're saying it's the same thing.

Speaker 2 I mean essentially mindfulness I think is your going I would just be you know just start by being aware of your environment you know like you said like standing in that grocery store line right just like just instead of going into your phone which is just going to you know just distract your attention as another exercise and expression of the ego it's like you know just notice the people around you how about listening to other people talking you know or or just like look noticing the I'm a big tree lover. I I just I mean because because I don't see an you know there's I'm not

Speaker 2 in the forest I'm in the city you know so I get to I like my trees you know and I see them like oh look at that you know and I just take them in you know or so that's a great place to start is just being present to the environment that you're in without trying to change it. And one way to get to more of that presence is to get calm to feel your feet to you know to to to be with your breath and we're gonna say keep breathing we're gonna keep coming back to breathing because it has a physiological emotional and psychological impact

Speaker 2 on your um on your biology almost immediately so uh you have to learn to use it. So I mean that's a great place to start is just by simply being aware of your environment and just taking it in and not trying to judge it or evaluate in some ways but just notice notice the colors notice the shapes or the you know uh that's the great way to do it.

Speaker 1 I love it. I'd say and to just see I always say try it on if it doesn't work you don't have to keep doing it notice the moment and how you're feeling in that moment before you start and then once you've just popped out of it notice how you feel then just start paying attention. I always say just collect some data. I always feel better when I take time to breathe and usually where it's now with relationships with men, because I'm still thinking I'm always coming back to that it's in a moment where I'm like oh I know I'm about to say some shit that is

Speaker 1 probably going to be something I regret because I'm super emotional. I've since I've really been saying do not make any decisions ever when you're too happy too sad to anything like any emotion you're just kind of not grounded in like you your essence whatever your truth and so I walk away and I breathe and that just it's it's basically never not helped. Maybe sometimes it wasn't like whoa my whole life just got better but sometimes it's like thank God I just paid attention yeah I like that okay so be more aware I always say awareness is the first step to everything. Be more aware and also

Speaker 1 take what resonates leave the rest you might love to sit in your bath and meditate. When I'm in that cold plunge every day actually it's so cold that just focusing on my breathing helps me not feel the cold. We were FaceTiming one day and I was in it and at some point I think you were like are you cold and I'm like no like I forgot that I because what we're focused on is what's true. And if you're stuck in your head in a shit spiral the only way that you're gonna turn it into a love loop pitching some other episode I just recently did because

Speaker 1 it's true is first tune in that's compassion that's fierce compassion masterful listening always starts from within I love that you said that okay what's do you have a question? What do men want to know?

Speaker 2 Like and also do they really want to listen that's what I'm trying to figure out like is this something that men are feeling now they gotta do because it's like the thing people a lot of people are talking about listening more which is good or like is it a genuine like I want to be more emotionally expressive and listen but I don't know how like what's the what's the block and what's the desire from your experience with all your work and you uh yeah I think like the the the big block I mean I spoke to it earlier about like the whole you know the just

Speaker 2 the typical way that most men express themselves you know in those roles of you know prior provider protector conqueror which is just like a learned you know uh program if you will you know only keeps us in a certain certain emotional state um and I think it's like but when you start realizing that that doesn't work for you right uh because there's like there's also there's this um there's this there's this like deeper calling I feel on the inside I mean that's why you know why do you think we suffer with our mental health is because you know we're going we're fighting the current we're fighting

Speaker 2 the current of of of how we should be as human or or who how we should be as human beings in a sense not how like you know um we naturally want to be connected to be present to be happy to have a heartfelt experience but if the mind creates so much suffering um because of of just from our habits and and our habits are are one big thing that really gets in the way um you know if you're always looking uh one thing that also gets in the way with men it's like we're always trying to compete always trying to compare right what do they

Speaker 2 say like comparison is theft of joy you know and enjoy you know is the is the opportunity to to to listen to be present to to be here to to feel that heart you know to be in the moment to really connect meaningfully with someone um so that that's one I mean I actually have a I have a couple notes I don't want to forget these um because these are this is great yeah I mean there's a big thing with men and as I mentioned earlier like um a lot of men have very transactional relationships so it's not like you know yeah with each other or

Speaker 2 with this a women like are we talking just men to men? Well I want to clarify more so with men to men but definitely with everybody as well. I mean if it's there with man to men it's gonna be with everybody else it's very you know what can I get kind of thing like men are very one thing I learned through my yoga training is you know I did the divine feminine training to really kind of get deeper into my feminine we have a feminine side like masculine feminine side everybody does and uh and I I it was important for me to know the feminine side

Speaker 2 and one thing I learned about like studying with a female teacher about the divine feminine is like uh the energy that kind of the way that men or women differ is um women are very circular in nature in the sense of like they they connect and uh you know community is very important for them like that's why you know they're they're like there's nesting and homemakers and stuff like that. And that's like the only roles but like they're just just more and we have that inside me too. It's like I love to have a beautiful home like I love to cook for people. You know I

Speaker 2 just had you know I hosted my we did our first podcast summit here in New York City this weekend and I like you know brought a couple guys in I was cooking for them making sure the place is nice everything is good like so I mean that's like my you know I I kept saying to the guys I'm like oh sorry or it's like that that's my mom. It's my mom expressing herself through me. You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 Like you know and that's just sorry see even that no but that's just you know I mean not like these these John is like very connected man and so is our other man David right well that's the point we're laughing because that's but like some men yeah that that's like your mom because usually the woman is like making that but like I have a for those who don't know I have a cosmic husband I have a platonic life partner who's gay He's more like that than me. So it's funny, not all men like the traditional role. Oh my God, I would have loved to see that

Speaker 1 growing up. I'm from again a culture. It's super like Eastern European men are like, I'm the man, I'm in charge. You, the woman's just in the kitchen. And like she kind of that's just what it is. It's not even good or bad. And there is nothing bad about that. It's great. And sometimes I always say, I like to drive and I love having a great co-pilot who I know if I want to let him take over the wheel. I feel safe. Like, I don't know if men are this is what I would want men to know is that you know how this whole conversation also about

Speaker 1 we all have our masculine and feminine parts. I think that's if you're not aware of that, then great. That's really true. For me, as like a super feminine and masculine, I'd say I've never, I don't meet many people like me who truly, I feel like I'm like, I mean, look at me. I'm like I love color and I'm maternal and I got so much emotion, but like I'm so manly in so many ways, meaning like I will lift the shit myself and I will drive, like I will negotiate, get shit done. That that is masking energy.

Speaker 2 It's like the linearity is like you know, it's like Lina, get stuff done. You need to be keep going forward, keep marching on. Right, yeah, exactly. Discipline. Right, and we need both. We absolutely need both, you know, and it's like, yeah, but when you have both and you're able to access both, then you can really be effective, like very, very effective. Um, you know, other things that get in the way of men, it's like, you know, um, you know, the the playing the game of who's right, and that's that transactional, right? Like that's very, you know, that's one um uh one thing that's really helped me,

Speaker 2 and I'm gonna go and be uh a trainer someday for non-uhviolent communication, Marshall Rosenberg. Uh, you know, that's where I learned from him, like that game of who's right, which is nobody wins in the game of who's right. So if you're always playing the game, it's like you're always in some sort of competition. You know, I think another thing for men, and this comes from a place of insecurity, is always trying to, you know, if they don't have like, you know, that external validation, like they're always like, oh, look at my muscles or look at this, or look at, you know, look at whatever, my shoes

Speaker 2 or my car or something like that. Or another way that's expressed, that's all just coming from a place that they don't know who they are. That's they're just they're just not they just haven't found who they are yet, you know. Um, and and and that just without knowing who you are, you just you could you're just not confident because you're not literally inhabiting your essence and who and who you are. Um, you know, so that also can look like always trying to sound intelligent and like super smart and like look at how incredibly like oh my god, it's so funny that that's exactly on a track.

Speaker 1 It's like when I hear that I'm like, oh my god, right?

Speaker 2 I mean, yeah.

Speaker 1 It's also not true. Like, and even if it is, it's and I I feel fine saying it. That's not my person. I'm with you. I don't even judge you. It's just uh yeah, self-awareness, even if you're struggling with it, like that's the point. I think once you wake up, you just can't go back to sleep. Once you realize that, I mean, I'm not gonna go down a matrix rap rabbit hole, but once you realize I really think we are we are powerful, we are so much more powerful as beings than we are taught. And taking understanding masterfully listening to my both parts, I realized I was

Speaker 1 either feeding the masculine too much or the feminine too much. What does it mean to listen to which part, which part needs to drive right now? When I'm tired on the on a highway, I tap into like Axel, who's like one of my, it's like if you're familiar with internal family systems, this is psychology. This is we all have many parts. The first step is realizing that. The second step for me was understanding which part is which part and what they need. My feminine part needs something very different than the masculine part, truly. So, not making things wrong, being kinder to ourselves. This compassion program we

Speaker 1 did really saved my life in a way because I was beating myself up my whole life, which was a more masculine quality that I was presented with. That didn't help. Um, it felt worse. And truly, I'm like obsessed with listening. And people were telling me last year that I was a shitty listener. I swear to God, I had a moment where I was, and not all the time, but this came up and I was like, mother. I was like, I am not in. I just felt all and I'm like, hold on. If I'm if there's a pattern and I don't like it, I don't even agree

Speaker 1 with it, but if there's a pattern, let me just listen to what they're saying. And when I started listening, and it's hard to listen to shit you don't like that you don't agree with, right? That's another point. Um, a lot of people are suffering right now, men and women, and it's hard to hear a lot of shit. So um what is said is not always what's heard. I always say you're flying a plane, you're having a great trip. But if you can't land that plane on a runway, it doesn't matter how you're even flying. You're having a great conversation, but if you're speaking and someone is

Speaker 1 just not able to hear you, whether they are trying or not, honestly, that can be tough. So I think mindfulness, like listening, they're similar in that not only are they pretty much the same and they sound they're simple, they're not easy, and it's a constant practice, right? So, like from that perspective, um

Speaker 1 if you wanted men to know, or what do you tell, like what's the one thing? I love that. I don't know if you know that. I'm gonna summarize it in yeah, in a sentence, meaning one thing at a time. One thing. You start one thing and then you go and you build and kind of trust no one knows the how. What's the one thing in this whole realm right now that like you want men to know?

Speaker 2 What helped me, uh, because I was a bad listener, you know, or I was trying, I guess, be a better listener. I was, you know, I wasn't really aware of my listening or lack of of or I could improve my listening skills until I had a friend that um that I love dearly, he was my first roommate in college and I was 18, goes a long way back. I'm still friends with him, great guy. Uh and uh he used to always send out these quotes, and uh, you know, so we he came in the city one day and we were you know um having dinner and

Speaker 2 we're talking, he's like, Oh, I heard this quote that really has helped me. I'm like, what is it? He's like, listen so deeply that you disappear. And I was like, wow, and uh, and that was my game changer right there. And uh and and so what what I needed to do, so just taking that to heart, right? Knowing that listening is very important. I mean, I was already, you know, also I was already meditating at this time, you know, for for already probably 10 years at that point. So like um, so understanding like what it means to get calm and like kind of listen to yourself

Speaker 2 on the inside, you know, and just just being present to the moment as it is and trying to fix or change or you know, criticize or something like that. Um, you know, so so then I started getting engaging in every conversation. I would just remind myself of that one little quote. And I would just like, and then it would be like, what does it mean to disappear? What does it mean to listen deeply? Right. And so I just kept finding myself like, oh, well, deep listening is just just just done nothing. Just that person is speaking to me and I'm just receiving. I'm just receiving. And

Speaker 2 you know, I can see my mind wanting to fix or want to, you know, have an idea or something like that. So it's like, you know, and and that's gonna happen naturally, of course, but you know, but just holding that back and just keep going. And I just, what does it mean to disappear? It means like I don't need to, I don't need to fix, I don't need to change, I don't need to, you know, I don't need to do anything, I don't need to solve their problems, right? I don't need to enhance the conversation anyway, just listen. And um this was back in like 2000.

Speaker 2 Um, that that I heard this the first time, and uh and it just it just and I don't necessarily repeat that to myself anymore because now it now it's become a habit to just drop in and listen and just be. And that's that's the other part, it's just be. Be how you how you are, as you are, like you know, and and and just let it all go. And it's okay where you are, how you are, and uh and and you know what you look like or whatever. It doesn't matter. You know, when you show up with that much presence, there's so much. I mean, because

Speaker 2 you're lighting up the heart of the another person, and what comes through the heart, right? You know, more of um, you know, all that, all those C's, you know, everything, everything online, right? And part of that is forgiveness, part of that is understanding. So, you know, part of that is is is just you know, this one thing that you know come that came really got clear for me and really helped me understand more of the human experience is what we talked about often when as we developed and understood self-compassion and compassion is this common humanity, right? And that's like part of us, and the common humanity

Speaker 2 is like we're all human beings, we're all having a human experience, and you know, and sometimes life is great, sometimes not so great, but it's just like and and life is often we suffer, and that's just part of being a human being. So it's not like I'm better than somebody else, or I need to fix somebody else, or you know, or judge somebody else in some way. It just it just just be just be present. And and as you what am I experiencing? What I ground myself a little bit deeper into that conversation and go, you know, disappear a little bit more, all of a sudden

Speaker 2 the other person just starts, you know, if it depends on the conversation, but just more starts coming out. There's a there's a beautiful sense, there's a bond that comes through, there's a trust that is gained, you know, when you really get listening. With that trust, what's possible? Like anything's possible because it's like when you're really connected from that heartfelt space, and this is something from Napoleon Hill when he talks about masterminding is when two minds come together, a third mind is formed. And I've felt with that. I've I've I've I've that third mind is where new possibilities, creativity, you know, new options, things you never thought

Speaker 2 of before, because you're uniting two souls, you're uniting two hearts, and then and then there's like this third entity that's very strange, and you know, um, but it's but it's kind of there because all of a sudden, like you ever talk to, you know, you're talking to one or two other people, never had this thought before in your life, and all of a sudden it's like a massive download from that conversation.

Speaker 1 Oh, it happens all the time, and then I'm like, oh my god, this is profound. And they know I'm gonna take out my notebook and that's the third mind. That's the third mind.

Speaker 2 You know, that that's part of that conversation. But you have no ability to access that if you're on on head level, you're not heart level, you're in your head, you know, trying to like again fix or change or judge or you know, I'm better than you, or putting up some fucking wall or whatever because of your own insecurities. So it takes time. It takes, you know, I guess another thing that might have helped me is just letting go of all my stress, like getting the stress out of my body. Because if you're not working out, if you're not, you know, exercising your body somehow, if you're

Speaker 2 not coal plunging, you know, I mean is one way to do it. Uh, but if you're not exercising out, you know, that energy of of of suffering, which is stress or anxiety or whatever, frustration, anger, then it's just gonna, it stays with you. It stays inside of you and locks you up even more because it could, it's like so embedded into our body that it has such an incredible influence on the mind. You know, so you need to like that's why breathing is so beautiful, right? I just like I was I I was teaching, I do a lot of uh I teach this 90-minute class in

Speaker 2 New York City, six o'clock uh down in St. Mark's yoga. So if you're in the city, come down. Uh it's 90 6 p.m. 6 o'clock p.m. 6 p.m. Uh 90 minutes. I do like a good 15 minutes of breathing. And I have a lot of students that come in. Uh and it's getting better. It's like I'd say it's almost 70 30 as far as like you know, ratio to men, you know, men are more men are showing up, which is great. Cool. But uh some of the women that have been coming to class, and we do the like the like some deep breathing, like the inner

Speaker 2 fire breath. Like, like I just go like, like when I'm overwhelmed, I literally I'm like, and I like move, I'm like, go, go, go, go. So some of these women in class are like never breathe this way, or never, you know, and they're like, Oh my god, I started crying in class. You know, and I'm like, good for you. Oh, yeah. You know, and then two weeks later, someone else is like, Oh, I started crying. I was like, good for you.

Speaker 1 That was my favorite, dude. When I was in a yoga class and I was so sweaty at the end that I could just cry really hard and could tell they couldn't tell if I was I would have really, I mean, good.

Speaker 2 Because then you can again get into your body, you can get into your heart, you can, you know, it's like what do they say? You have two ears and one mouth, so you'd be listening, you should be listening twice as as much as you speak. So so yeah, those are some of the things that I see I see with men, you know, like in a big way.

Speaker 1 Listen so deeply that you disappear. I that just like melted me. I was like, oh my god. That's what inspired you said that when we were talking, and I I meant to ask you, or maybe I did, who actually quoted that? Because I need to, okay. So I'm gonna I'm gonna look it up and I swear to God, I'm totally making merch because rad hats, rad shoes. I obviously like I want to put listen so deeply that you disappear with whoever said it on that shirt. And I want to somehow promote them and give all the money towards mental wealth, which is what I do with

Speaker 1 all the stuff I make, because that to me, that just feels so good. And I don't know if that resonates the same, clearly resonated for you, but like disappearing, not even like you're not there. I see it as like disappearing into the them, you, that third, the thing, the space. Like I have moments where I'm like, I see every there's an awareness that's possible. Truly, I feel like I've had some psychedelic experiences in my life, more like medicine healing journeys. But when I'm listening fully, completely sober, and I'm like smelling the air and seeing the water and noticing rad, and just it's insane. I've started seeing

Speaker 1 every day 111 right now. I'm serious, like 111, 222, 333, 444, 555. I'm into numerology. I also believe there's a lot of wisdom all in all kinds of places. And frankly, whatever story you like, I mean, that's what's real for you. So if you're gonna pay attention to something, it's life can become really magical and beautiful in the most simple ways. If you just notice the synchronicities, right? That's what else mindfulness gave me because I I was living more for the big first of all, those are great. I have a lot of life stories, which makes a great podcast of like the big stuff, and yet

Speaker 1 it's like the everyday small stuff that literally makes up most of your life. Yeah, right. Uh and conversations are pretty much daily, right? Like work, love. I want to talk about relationships because I was veering off on a really awesome detour and I brought myself back. To summarize, what I'm hearing from everything you said was just pay more attention to yourself in every moment. Breathe. And also go, go frick. I wish I was in New York. I'd come to your class. That's so cool that you do that. I love it. Um that's it's just that one class when I used to, it's like showing up's the

Speaker 1 hardest part sometimes. 6 p.m. I want to say you've worked probably all day. You're it's easier, honestly, to just sit on the couch and Netflix and chill. And I want to say if you've been doing that, cool. Great. I've done that. And it's never too late to start your day. That saved my life. It's never too late to start your life. You can always just choose two at five o'clock, try out a yoga class. Doesn't have to be Will's, but if you're lucky enough to be in New York, how cool is that, right? Um, put on a meditation, whatever the episode right before this one, you

Speaker 1 inspired me. It was that quote, and it was my first ever meditation that I recorded as a gift. Listen, like if you I've rarely found meditations with like the guide's voice that I really like. There's a lot to it. I prefer to just sit with my breathing. But some people like to have a guided meditation, right? And that's a really cool option, too, to have that experience. Do you do that too, by the way? Like, like more long guided meditation experiences or videos.

Speaker 2 I don't know I mean, there's been uh um I like to get, you know, again, simple, simple, you know, what simplicity is genius, right? Uh is what you said earlier.

Speaker 1 Thank you for telling us that you were listening. I wasn't sure. Sorry. You're powerful and strong, and I see your awesome.

Speaker 5 I mean, an asshole. That comes through sometimes, you know what I mean. I just can't help it, right? Yeah.

Speaker 2 I like it. Well, I mean, so I um I've been listening to the same meditation by Sharon Salzberg, who is like just you know, a master in her own right, um, for 10 years now, and it's called breath meditation. And I'm glad you brought up meditation because that's a great way to start listening and to start getting calm. And she starts this meditation. She's like, We're just going to begin by just simply hearing. Just simply hearing. You know, sound arises and it's gone. That's it. Nothing to fix, nothing to fabricate, nothing to change, nothing to correct. Just be here. And just simply listening to sound. And

Speaker 2 I'm like, wow. Right. I mean, so that's helped me. But also, like in the process of meditating, right? I, you know, I'm I'm again, I'm I'm going on the inside. Right. I mean, it's like, and I get to know thyself by going on the inside, you know, um, and know the stuff that gets in the way of that self. And and but also in in just by doing that simple meditation, but even it's like a you know, you mentioned any guide of meditation, you still need to listen. And what's funny about like a guide of meditation is like I literally have been doing this meditation since

Speaker 2 like 2012. And I I found it from that uh the divine feminine teacher I had, right? So it's all connected, and uh, you know, still I I I uh I you know I did it the other day um with with the guys that were here for the summit and we did the whole 22-minute meditation and like I keep hearing new things. And I've listened to this a couple thousand times. You know what I mean? So it's like, but it's also it's because my because now I'm ready to hear it. You know what I mean? Because I haven't lived it yet, or I haven't I don't know

Speaker 2 it yet because it's not it's it's not you know, it's just information, right, instead of being in instead of being like energizing and filling me because of an experience that I've had, because of the practice that I keep doing. You know what I mean? It's like it's all connected. And if you don't take time to just to get calm and to sit and to meditate and just relax, and you know, and that meditation I have of a buddy that's like, I'm not gonna meditate, but he ties flies, you know what I mean? He's like a fly fisherman, like that's his little practice. You know what I

Speaker 2 mean? Because you need to focus on that. So there's like so many different ways to do that. Yeah. Um, but he couldn't tie flies if he's super distracted, you know, and not like you know, listening to the process and the practice of flying ties, you know. So flying ties, tying flies, the time flies, yeah.

Speaker 1 But dude, seriously. I love the I love that. I noticed that because I was I I was I was listening, dude. I have honestly, and I can own it, I've become a better listener. Why? I've probably listened to my own show a thousand times because I wanted to also truly not only practice, but what you said. Uh I hear new shit. I'm like, oh, good things, bad things, things I like, things I didn't hear, things I want to work on. That's why I rewatch movies every time I reread the Tao, my books. I do see something new because I'm ready to see it. And that's the

Speaker 1 point. I think if you're listening right now, some part of you is ready to start whatever. I always say, take one thing away from today, and you're gonna get homework, by the way. In fact, I've been writing down homework. I'm gonna give you one of them right now to test your listening. Are you gonna remember the homework assignment that you heard at one hour, six minutes? Maybe you want to write it down. Which one is it gonna be? Ah, yes. One of the things that you brilliantly said, this could also be a t-shirt, is moving forward, if whatever we're saying is resonating with you, here's the

Speaker 1 question I want you to ask yourself. Do I want to be right or happy? And I want you to ask that. That was like another way that I heard what you said. And that's something I want you to just practice asking yourself in every moment that you either find yourself pissed at you, you're frustrated, or uh someone else. Because the truth is, uh, we're trying to fight ourselves too. We're trying, I was trying to convince myself and sell myself. And I gotta say, I'm I'm having these moments a lot, and I know I am kind of like honored by them because I don't take it for

Speaker 1 granted. Where I'm catching myself, like I was driving the other night from San Francisco at two in the morning, and I had a weird night. I got triggered. It was like good and bad and convoluted, and I was tired. But I thought I was like, I said, I'm gonna hit every green light till I get home. And I did. I put on music I liked, and I was like, I really like being with me. And I was like, whoa, that was so not the case for most of my life. I didn't, I honestly wanted to be around other people. And I'll admit this is true. It

Speaker 1 was, I didn't even realize it because I didn't want to be with my own thoughts. I was distracting myself. How often was I calling a friend to like hang out just because I also wanted to be included. I needed to have plans on the weekend. It's everyone makes fun of me. I don't go anywhere. It's like too much. My friends are kind of like, come on, Svetia. But I've really enjoyed my time alone because I just had to be like, I need to be, I have to be peaceful. I don't have to love everything. No, I don't have to like everything. There's parts of me I

Speaker 1 don't like, but I love the part of me that struggles with them and that keeps working. Right. So I want, I wanted to say that question because I want to be not even happy. I want to be at peace more than I want to be right, is kind of uh what I want for everyone. Uh and so start doing that. Just start noticing that. You don't even have to do anything about it. That's the thing. We don't need to fix shit. I say that all the time. If I wanted men to know one thing as a woman truly, and this is just me, I can't speak

Speaker 1 for all of women, I can't speak for all women, but I was saying something on my date last night to this dude, and these two women on the other side of the restaurant must have heard and they start screaming, hell yeah! And I was like, cool. So, you know, I'm gonna speak for women and say, truly, if a dude, if a man says something like, man, I like a thing that they would probably assume would turn me off. Like they've had an addiction of some kind. They went through something really, they did something bad. And yet after like sharing that, they say, and this is what

Speaker 1 I decided to do and learn from that. This is who I'm becoming. I'm like so much more impressed. And the last thing I ever want a man to do is fix anything unless I ask him to help me fix something. And then I'm like, hell yeah, awesome, right? So I just want to say that because truly, um, not only that, like we don't, I think I don't think we want that as much. I think most women who I know, and I've talked to a lot of women, my show's listeners are more like 70, 30, 70% women, which is cool too. Like, I love it. Um, most

Speaker 1 women and actually humans are like, stop trying to fucking fix it. That's why as a coach, I'm like, there's nothing wrong with you. Guys, there's nothing to fix. Ladies, too, everyone, you're you're good. We can just grow, get better, improve. And uh, it's really attractive when people can just admit their own. I always say we're all kind of like our own flavor of fucked up. And I say that lovingly. And it's like you meet the other flavors and you're like, oh, it's not like trauma bonding. It's more like, oh, you're human. I'm human. And I'm yeah, Jonathan said, you are just the most incredibly amazing woman,

Speaker 1 and you're a complete disaster. And I love that about you. And I'm like, yes, really. It's like profound to profane. I mean, look at like Alan Watts or just there's so many beings who are like, wow, just wise, next level and a I mean, so flawed and not bad.

Speaker 2 Well, flawed is just human, right? I mean, it's just like you gotta accept that. You know, I think that's another thing that might get in the way of people, you know. I mean, man may be listening in some ways because they're always trying to be perfect. It's never always trying to say the perfect words or look perfect or do the perfect thing or have the perfect job. Again, that external validation. Like, you know, once you start letting go of those things, once you start letting go of like how you should be and what it should look like, what it should sound like, it's like you just

Speaker 2 are naturally gonna want to listen because I think you know, uh I listen because I want to learn in a lot of ways. I want to learn from people. You know, like I wanna like I want, but I also want to connect with them deeply. I want to get to know them. You know, there might be some wisdom in there that that can help me down the road in some way, or help or help me help someone in a different way. Like it's just so much, but there's a wealth of of knowledge and wisdom in in in everybody. But like if if you if you're showing

Speaker 2 up, you know, in a conversation or any whatever situation, like with your you know, armor on, you know, and you're putting up this masculine front, it's like nobody, you know, then then that's how the other person's gonna show up. They're gonna put up their armor, they're gonna put on their front, and then you're never gonna really, yeah, exactly. You're never gonna, you're never gonna learn, or you're never gonna get to know them at all. And and and that's like what that's like that's where it starts, creating that space, you know, of two people, you know, and this is you know, Rumi, this is another thing that's

Speaker 2 helped me so much, is like beyond the ideas of right doing and wrongdoing, there is a field. I'll meet you there, is what Rumi says. And it's like, you know, and that right doing is wrongdoing, and right doing and wrongdoing is the war of the ego, is where most people stay, you know, in their life, because you know, it's you know, just the way our society is kind of designed, it's everything because typically very transactional. Plus, there's so much stress in our society because of you know, people are just financially hurting in certain ways, and that stress just literally overcomes you or overtakes you in so

Speaker 2 ways in so many ways. But if you're able to calm down, get still, you can step into that field. And in that field is the field of all new possibilities. And like that's where that's where that's where the that's where your life can start. Right there. But you'll never have an opportunity if you're if you're just staying in the head, you know, and st and and warring with the ego, instead of like dropping down into your heart and getting calm. And then like listening from a place of like, you know, I don't have I don't need to fix anything right now, I could just be here

Speaker 2 and be like two be two human beings communicating at a heart level in a human way.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 that's a permission. Permission right now. Like if you feel like you need it, let me gently give you some permission to just be you, you're great, and whatever you want to be, that's awesome, more awesome than you feel like you could be, or whatever. Fill in your adjective. You could totally do that. Like I always say, I am no more special than anyone else. I think that other thing, better at versus better than, just the competition that changed my life. Because I had a lot of people reflect to me that I felt very competitive, that they, and I was like, but I'm not actually. But because

Speaker 1 I'm a strong, confident communicator, it can, I mean, I like some healthy competition, but truly, I'm not trying to come off better than, but people were feeling that. And I thought, well, actually, how am I communicating? And I realized, no, no, I am better at all kinds of things, but I'm really not any better than anybody. And that helped me also stop trying to be better than people sometimes because it's also natural. That's again the ego. So that's another little, maybe we'll have a list of just mantras because I love that. I'm covered in them, right? Like this is it was the first one. So that's

Speaker 1 the thing. This is it for me. My company is this is it enterprises. I literally had a moment, I was at landmark. I don't know if you're familiar with landmark. Yeah. So again, there's so much you could do out there that gets you to some moment of I was just sitting there. I was not in a good place in my life. I wasn't in like a horrible place. I was just kind of coming out of a hard time. And there's this whole thing that I'm not even going to go into. But at the end, this dude goes, This is it. And it's not like I didn't

Speaker 1 hear those words before. I'd heard this is it a lot, but something about that moment and the realization that like this is it. This is my life. I didn't like it necessarily. I kind of wanted it to be different, but just like the it was like the radical acceptance, as Tara Brach, if you are familiar with her, says. And I was like, okay. And from here, there was nothing but that nothing. That's like the Taoist, like it's the emptiness in the container that holds the whole thing that could be in it, right? The tea or whatever. So, and that's where everything changed. I'm always coming. My

Speaker 1 mantras again, this is it is like, this is it. This is it. This is literally this moment right now is literally the only thing that's happening for us in life. How cool! It's like things become more sacred. Uh, and then the other one is this too shall pass. It's in Hebrew from the Bible. I didn't even know that was a thing, and someone told me, and I was like, Yeah, which also reminds me to be here because that good shit, it will pass, and the bad shit, it will pass. Which doesn't seem like it. Breathing really helps, right? Mindfulness, listening, like so good. Rumi, thank you

Speaker 1 for bringing up Rumi. I'm gonna read the guest house right now. I wasn't gonna do that, but you love Rumi. I love Rumi. I said earlier, what you seek is seeking you. I want to really share with everybody, whoever you are, that giving yourself permission to feel anything that you feel, especially those emotions we've all been taught are bad, is so powerful because you do deserve to feel their feelings are not facts, but you your feelings are so valid, and men, your feelings are so valid. Women, your feelings are so valid. Having a lot of feelings, great, super normal. It's what you do with that. What

Speaker 1 do you do with your anger? I think anger is really healthy. What do you do with that anger, right? Do you build? Do you destroy? Do you create creation, destruction, feminine, masculine? That's sort of the theme of everything we're talking about. So I just want to quickly share this. It's a super short poem, and it's something that really helped me when I heard these words. Like when I listened to them, I was like, Well, it was deep for me, and maybe it'll land with you. That's another mindfulness activity, by the way. Look at some words, a poem, read them to yourself, right? There's a lot of

Speaker 1 creative ways to do this. So this is a poem called The Guest House. And I recently heard Helena Bottom Carner read it on TikTok, and I thought, I want to do that. Doing it right now.

Speaker 2 She's from Fight Club, right? Helena, yeah. Fucking she's so bad. Yeah, she's amazing.

Speaker 1 I always connect to her and some, she's just herself. I don't know. I it it's it's cool, just be you. That's actually a compliment I've gotten a lot. Like you're just you've always just been you. I'm like, yes. Now I don't know if that's always landed super well for me or everyone, but yeah, it's cool. It's cool to be around people that are just like this is unapologetic, right? Raw, uncut, all of it. Cool. It's I like that. Okay, so let's take a deep breath, actually. So, because we're gonna

Speaker 1 this being human is a guest house every morning with a new arrival, a joy, a depression, a meanness. Some momentary awareness comes as an unexpected visitor. Welcome and entertain them all, even if they're a crowd of sorrows who violently sweep your house empty of its furniture still to treat each guest honorably. He may be clearing you out for some new delight. The dark thought, the shame, the malice, meet them at the door laughing and invite them in to be grateful for whoever comes because each has been sent as a guide from beyond.

Speaker 4 Love it. Right. I mean, yeah.

Speaker 1 I really read that.

Speaker 2 It helped me almost forgive myself for like all the It's been a while since I've heard that, and it and it just really reminds me that it's like, you know, everything that that life gives you is a gift. It's like, you know, it's or you know, I work with this one student right now who's like, I really love this guy. And uh, you know, he's struggling with, you know, he's he's you know, he's struggling within his company, this and that, and he's struggling with this one particular person that he works with on a regular basis, and you know, and we're trying to, you know, just kind

Speaker 2 of like zoom out and objectify the whole situation. And like, you know, we were um, you know, in the beginning, it was like, you know, we're coming up with a name or something like that for him. Like, oh, I was like, why don't you just call him your teacher? I was like, call him my teacher, call that's my teacher. And now every time we talk, it's like I was like, What's your teacher teaching you? He's like, Oh, he teaches me this. I'm like, fucking beautiful, right?

Speaker 4 And that's the guest house, right?

Speaker 2 It's like you don't know what it's getting, but it's like there's something, you know. I mean, don't, you know, don't be abused, you know what I mean? All that kind of stuff. Like, not like that, but like, you know, like often people, you know, and that's the thing, like when you get deeper into listening, you get deeper into yourself, you know, you can cut beyond, you know, the the egos taking everything so fucking personal, right? I mean, it's like, oh you know, which is ridiculous, right? I mean, it's like I mean, it's it's just something that uh it's just it's it's very common, and like, and

Speaker 2 I still do it. It's one of the most difficult practices, not making assumptions and not taking things personal, but again, it's a practice, but I'm aware of it, right? But in the in the sense of this flavor of not taking things personal, it's like when someone, you know, or they say when someone you know uh give brings you a bag of shit, it's your it's it's your option to take it from them or not. It's like no, no, no, I don't want. No, that's not that's nothing to do with me. Like it's like you can you can keep all your stuff over there. It's like, or

Speaker 2 it's like, what is this guy teaching me? What's this person teaching me?

Speaker 1 So or a metaphor, if you're looking for shit, you'll find around. If you're looking for yeah, yeah, there really is. Like, and I I someone asked me the other day, how is it that every day I call and I say, Do you want to hear the magic of the day? And I'm like, because I'm looking for it. I'm looking for the magic and I'm finding it. What you will look for, really. When I was pissed off, everyone looked pissed off. When I'm in a great mood, that's the thing. People think when we fall in love, it's a person. I feel like when you fall in love,

Speaker 1 you fall into a state of love, and suddenly I'm like in love with the mailman, and everything is great. And I'm right, it's it's the inner world, it's but it's it's the people we're around, right? It's how we're all doing this thing together. And you know what's cool too? That teacher thing. I told you I'm I was in a program with you. I met another man who I thought I was gonna have a totally whoa, I thought it was gonna be like a compassionate, amazing experience. It wasn't. And at first I was like, holy, oh my god. And then I thought, oh, he's the best teacher.

Speaker 1 Exactly. I am about to get a PhD in compassion. Holy sh really, oh my god. And I did, and then I met you, and I'm like, yes, like there are so many awesome people. I guarantee, I don't know who's listening, but I bet if you're listening, you're a super cool person. You're somehow interested in a topic that both of us are interested in. You're taking the time still, if you're still here, cool. Fuck yeah, that's awesome. Like, not only do I hope you're having moments of like, I don't know, growth, curiosity, connection, you're gonna get homework. Um, that's the point. Like, take something from the experiences

Speaker 1 that you have and actually do something with it. Because we could talk about meditation all day long.

Speaker 2 We could talk about all these things and you can have like you can walk away and you can forget it in fucking three days or like three minutes, right? But if you take like whatever the homework's gonna be, uh or even the first homework assignment, right? Uh, and just work with it. Work with that one thing. You said like that book, the one thing is great. Maybe pick up that book could be a great homework, right? Because learn about how like just doing one thing and how one thing goes to the next, to the next, to the next, to the next. And it just all of

Speaker 2 a sudden it's like, oh, I'm a different person. You know, same person, but a different person, in the sense of like I love myself more. Yeah, I care more, I care for myself more, therefore I can care for more other other people more, right? Like I listened to myself, now I can listen to other people more. Right?

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's not you or them. Literally, I am a better. I always say, whoever gets me now is getting such an upgraded version of this human being, truly, not in an ego way. I'm easier to be with now, I think, because I decided I wanted to be. Every moment that you're alive is a moment to practice mindfulness and listening. That's cool. It's free.

Speaker 2 And it's one of the best things. You don't have to pay for it. I mean, if you want to be a good communicator, be a better listener. Period. I mean, it's the other it's the other half of communicate. You can't you can't communicate to an empty room. You know, you can try, it's gonna be frustrating, right? Um, it's anyway, yeah.

Speaker 1 Except if you're communicating internally, right? That's the point. You literally, yes, it's it's both. It's it's both. And I would even sprinkle on top because I've learned make it fun. I really hate doing shit that I feel like I have to do. So there's a lot of people talking about listening, meditations, becoming the new, honestly, it's like, cool. I'm glad this is what's more popular now. And do it because you really want to. Find a way to practice because I'm telling you, cold plunging is hard every day, but I enjoy it. It brings me joy. I try to integrate. So that's my invitation for you. However,

Speaker 1 you're leaving with today, and I say this to you, Will, as well, and you're gonna get your own homework assignment. Um, I want you to think about what around this topic actually seems like more interesting for you that you want to practice. Maybe it's option one. I'm gonna give you options for homework. I want you to think of someone in your life that you've been mishearing or who's mishearing you. Maybe it's a partner. Maybe you keep having the same fight. You know, typically they say in relationships, we're having the same fight over and over again, kind of the whole time. And that's okay, by the way,

Speaker 1 because it's cool if you can work through that. Whoa, like talk about growth together. So go to that person, and I always say, I love asking for permission and setting intentions. And in your own language, say something like, Hey, I heard I heard a conversation about the power of listening. Maybe I realize I want to be a better listener. Can we just talk about like, let's design some stuff? Like, what do you need? What like have a listening chat? I love to, I call it a designed alliance in my coaching. But like Will and I started, we had a little bit of an intention, we talked,

Speaker 1 we planned a little. Like, if we have those conversations prior to the moments that are hard, you literally that's called a boundary. Just be super clear. Practice being a little more clear with someone you've been having some issues with. And the other homework assignment is will, give them one.

Speaker 2 Uh I would say just start start finding your breath. Find your breath. That's it. That's it. That's I mean, find your breath. There's like no shortage of uh uh meditation practice or breathing practice out there that you can just follow along. Like we have them on like on our podcast, Men Talking Mindfulness. You can find them and just start to find your breath.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I'll link it. I'm gonna link it. So that's the homework. I'm gonna link this Sharon Salzburg one. I'd love for you to send. That's your homework. If you could send me that, I will link some options for you all. And also the last episode is a meditation. There's so many options. Also, don't overthink it. Choose the first one you're drawn to, put it on, and just start. And I say, if it's not resonating, A, notice that resistance and try to stay a little longer. And if it's really not, turn it off, find one that does. There's a lot out there. Okay. And that's it. So

Speaker 1 that's your two pieces of homework. Again, also notice how was that? This is a longer episode. We had a new voice. Uh, how'd you feel? How do you feel leaving versus joining? Are you ready to subscribe and share this with everyone? Finally, now all the new listeners. Thanks. All the people who keep coming back, do that. I never say that at the beginning, but I even heard on your podcast, you guys like talk about the stuff at the beginning and talk about what you're doing. And there's been a part of me that's been more like nervous about trying to sell this show. And I'm like, this

Speaker 1 is a gift. So thank you for your gift. You took time. You're like a hot New York meditation guru. So I'm like, really, no, really, I'm grateful um for you being here. And anything you want to say to help us wrap this moment.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Um, I think we said a lot already. I uh I just I uh what I will say is like listening is an acquired skill, you know. I mean, just because you have two ears doesn't mean you're a good listener. So what can you do to be a better listener? And and it starts with one little thing, like it started with me, like that, just working with that one little listen so deeply that you disappear. Uh, you know, and I just kept reminding myself of that, or maybe you need to put that in your wall or something, you know. Uh and just you know, look at

Speaker 2 it every day. And and it gets better, it's incremental, it gets better, it gets better, it gets better. And one way to help you listen is to is to get calm. And what does it take to get calm? That's that's another thing that you need to exercise as well. Because the two really go hand in hand. So that's what I got.

Speaker 1 Listen so deeply that you disappeared.