Masterful Listening & Fierce Compassion: A Dynamic Duo | Featuring Special Guest Monica Hanson

Speaker 1 Welcome back, masterful listeners. Today's very exciting because I have a very special guest. And let me introduce her right away because I've been getting all excited with my guests and chatting before I give their bio. So I'm working on that. So it's my pleasure to introduce today's guest, Monica Hansen. Now, Monica is a leader in the field of compassion. She's been an integral part of Stanford University's Compassion Initiative since 2009, amassing over a decade and a half of valuable experience and expertise on her journey. Throughout her career in compassion, she's played a pivotal role in developing compassion programs across Stanford, including Stanford School of Medicine, Stanford

Speaker 1 Executive Education, Stanford Hospital, the Center for Compassion, and Stanford's leading neuroscience and pain lab. However, what sets Monica apart is her passion for uplifting others to lead with compassion through mentoring, training, and consulting work that she undertakes. Her impact in this way encompasses collaborations with giants like Nike, NASA, Johnson Space Center, or it's NASA Johnson Space Center. There we go. Jen Tech and SAP. SAP. I always see that and go, is it SAP? No, all right, keep going. As well as other institutions, including the police officer standards and training for the state of California, the U.S. Department of Defense, and the National Center for PTSD Dissemination

Speaker 1 and Training Division, Veterans Administration. Wow. Monica's ongoing mission as a mentor and consultant is to advocate for compassion as a choice that can influence leaders in the workplace, in our communities, and in our personal lives. So today we're going to embark on a conversation that delves into the next level perspective about compassion being a choice, not just a feeling, a choice. Huge distinction. And when we explore how this choice gives rise to fierce compassion, fierce compassion. This promises such fresh insights. I don't guarantee a lot of things, but I can guarantee that. So whether you're seeking a consultant, mentorship, or really simply a deeper understanding of

Speaker 1 this essential path, this conversation will be powerful, practical. I think it might also be funny because I think both of us are a little funny. So please welcome, help me welcome on your side. Yay, Monica Hansen. Hi, Monica. Thank you for being here today.

Speaker 2 Hi, Svetlana. I am so delighted to be here. We've been um talking and dreaming and imagining this moment, and I'm just happy to embrace this place with you.

Speaker 1 That is so true. I love that so much. I think I told you this. I've probably said this to you a few times now, but I've basically told everybody in my life that I finally met the mentor I've been looking for my whole life. And that's you, just in case that isn't clear. And that is just such, I mean, that's like such a great feeling. So the fact that we met and I met you because you were leading this compassion program that I just finished at Stanford at C Care, I mentioned in your bio. Um, and I was just so impressed with, I mean, you as

Speaker 1 a human being and as a leader and as a facilitator, and all this compassion work really made such an impact in my life that I was like, oh my gosh, I want her to be my mentor, but I also want her to be my friend. And I just want to get to know her. And now we have gotten to know each other. So I'm so happy that you can share some of your wisdom with the masterful listeners because I want not just me to know all of your, I mean, not just wisdom, but just you as a human being.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Thank you so very much, Svetlana. I'm really excited for our conversation today because you and I touch on aspects of compassion that are incredibly important for our complex and modern lives, and yet oftentimes are not often talked about and yet often experienced. So I'm delighted to be having this conversation with you and everybody that listens to your podcast.

Speaker 1 I love what you just said about there's just some things in life that are so important that everybody kind of deals with or faces, but we don't talk about. That is, you know, I say I'm a mental wealth advocate. And actually, listeners, I'm gonna start inviting you to listen in a certain way. Because as you know, if you've listened previously, this is the world's first super rad listening school that you really want to go to. So I want you to, as always, enjoy the conversation, the stories, but I'm gonna invite you to listen in a certain way because I really want you to, and I don't

Speaker 1 usually speak for people, but I'm gonna assume Monica also wants you to leave with whatever you leave with, but really do something with it, right? Because it's the action. We're gonna talk about how compassion is action versus just an, you know, a feeling or an experience. So here's how I'd like for you to listen today. Um, first, masterful listening as always. Listen to our words. Monica has a different pace, a different tone than I do. Uh, she uses different words, perhaps. How cool you're getting to see range. Not everyone speaks the same way, not everyone listens the same way. If you find yourself distracted, come back,

Speaker 1 right? This is a mindfulness practice as well as a podcast. So that's sort of the baseline of how I invite you to listen pretty much every time. But the next lens that I want to put on today is you've probably heard the word compassion. You've probably experienced times in your life where maybe you had some compassion, you lacked some compassion, you needed some compassion. Whatever your experience of compassion, whatever your beliefs about it, whatever your thoughts, let's just take a moment now and let's just be with that. Like let your mind, let your heart feel into everything you're coming in with today that has to do

Speaker 1 with this idea of compassion.

Speaker 1 And I'm gonna invite you to just let that go and have a beginner's mind, okay? Beginner's mind is the idea that I want you to listen as if you don't already know. I find that when we do that, even when we're hearing something that we've heard a hundred times before, we might hear something a little new, right? Because we're open to it. So that's the lens I wanted to invite. Monica, do you have anything you want to add just for the listener in terms of how you'd like them to listen to this conversation in particular?

Speaker 2 You know, I was just reflecting, Svetlana. Uh, one of the skills I've learned over my career has been to be a masterful listener or to be an adequate listener. I'll say an adequate listener. And it's actually a skill I've learned. It's not my go-to strategy. I'm more of a take action kind of person. And I was thinking today, um, as people are practicing masterful listening, they could be listening for what maybe they're hearing are some core values in our conversation or our intentions. They could be listening to, or for moments of emotion, and then also how all of that core values, attention, intention, and emotions come

Speaker 2 together to lead into, you know, compassion being a choice and giving way to some really skillful action that could be a little bit surprising in terms of, you know, maybe it's not commonly viewed consistent with being compassionate, and yet it when you really listen to what we're sharing, it's actually really compassionate. So that's that's my uh that's my wish for listening today.

Speaker 1 I love that. So what I'm hearing there is, yeah, when you're listening through the lens of realizing that the words we say, the stories we share, they do talk about our values, right? Sometimes it's not easy. Like if I say to clients as a coach, what are your values? Sometimes people are like, I don't know. So then I say, tell me a story of a great day that you had where you felt your work was awesome. And I listen and I'm like, oh, like we're saying a lot more than we think we're saying. So yeah, listen beyond the words for core values. I really love that.

Speaker 1 And then the other thing that just came for me was it's kind of meta because doing that is compassionate in a way, right? Like the actual practice of going a bit deeper and just listening deeper. I don't know what's more compassionate, frankly, than that. And masterful listening always starts from within. So notice, listener, what core values seem to appear through this conversation for us and for you. And if you notice it, write it down if you want, but then come back, right? Because what's gonna happen is you're gonna get off on a trail of, oh, and this thing and this thing and this value. And that's

Speaker 1 what happens when we listen. Pay attention to how often, even when you get inspired by someone, you then trail off and then you might be missing it. So again, the cool thing about a podcast is you could just rewind it and and go back. But I want you to just really be noticing your mind and how how you're listening to whatever kind of content is coming into your awareness. So, and maybe at the end, Monica, we could also, because we're having a conversation where we get to masterfully listen, if we figure out through it what the values that we've shared appear, we could share them and

Speaker 1 we'll see if the audience and we caught the same values that were shared.

Speaker 2 We have the same values, yeah. So cool. Can Selana, may I just reflect back something that you just did that was so masterful that um I think people can be learning and experiencing as we go along? Is that okay with you? Always. Thank you. Excellent. So you first invited me into the conversation around what lens might I hope people listen through. I shared three things. You reflected back those three things to me, and then also added on. I was inviting the audience to say, oh, listen to the values that we're sharing. And you took that even to the next level to invite them to be masterfully

Speaker 2 listening to themselves and the values or the intentions or the emotions or the expressions that might be rising within them. So I just wanted to point out, everyone, like that's an example of like masterful listening in the moment, and that's such skillful uh facilitation to add on to that moment as well. So thank you so very much. I feel so very seen and heard and have something to take away, not only inviting others to listen to others' core values, but then to use that as a reflection with themselves. So, so very well done.

Speaker 1 Thank you so much. And I mean, again, I can't help, but there's so many um moments of learning and teaching. I feel like you're a facilitator as well. You facilitated this whole, you're more than that, but we both facilitate experiences and courses. And when I'm doing that, I feel like I'm constantly a student and the teacher. And even what you just did, when you reflected that first you asked for permission, which I'm such a fan of. And again, listeners, if you've been listening, these are themes you've been hearing. Uh yes, that was awesome. And then what you said just made me feel really good because I

Speaker 1 think I might have said this to you before, and it was your reaction was kind of funny. I think I said this to you, and we'll tell maybe a quick sh short story about like our meeting and and how we even got to this topic. But um, I said, Monica, you're the first person in my adult life who really made me feel intelligent, like that I was smart. And I think you were like, really? And I'm like, yeah, I thought I was street smart and creative and all like I honored my skills, but even what you just did was like, wow, it's so rare that someone,

Speaker 1 especially in the moment, takes a moment to be like, hey, can I reflect something that I'm hearing to you that's it that feels important? Uh that is masterful listening as well. I feel like we just keep going back and forth, but it but yeah, it's amazing. It's it means a lot. Okay, so with that, um how did we meet and how did we get here? Like this topic, this moment. I'd love for you to can you share it from your perspective because the listeners might be curious.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's true. I was so hoping you would go first on this one. How did we meet and how did we get here? So technically we met in a program at Stanford, and um it was an applied, it's an applied compassion program. And uh I was your mentor in the program, and you were grad and you graduated from the program. It was in the November, just in November of 2023. And in addition to being your mentor in the program, I also noticed that we connected around certain topics like compassion being a choice or fierce compassion, even just maybe how we move through the world in ways

Speaker 2 that resonated and resonate with others, and sometimes they're also a little bit different from others. So that's my that's my take on how we arrived here. I think it was very pragmatic. We met at Stanford University, and then also, you know, there's a there's a dash of magic here too that we got to meet.

Speaker 1 Dash of magic. I love it. I think the dash of magic for me was that at the end of the program, uh, well, I had a very, and we'll talk, I think, a little bit about this. I had a very multi-dimensional experience of this program. It was incredible in so many ways, and it was deeply challenging in ways I didn't expect, which pretty much sounds like life. Uh, but at the end of it, I decided to throw a little graduation party. And you came. Like that was super cool. And I just getting the house ready. I think I did an episode, I don't remember, I think

Speaker 1 it was the peaceful productivity one. If the audience wants to listen, I was in this space of I want to get my house clean because there's no way I'm gonna have this woman over who I'm obsessed with, who's my mentor from my program, and it's gonna be a mess. And that was an amazing lesson. And then we got a chance to just actually meet in human form because the program was virtual. And when I met you, I remember being like, oh my gosh, like your presence and demeanor as well, so you were like the executive director of the entire program. And then there were three leaders

Speaker 1 who were wonderful, but I happened to get you as my mentor, which was amazing because you were my favorite, and I'm allowed to say that because that's true. Um, and uh I I you you to me were so graceful and poised, and your communication was I just so appreciated it. And mine I see it is very different. I think I'm a lot more like, I don't know, the word that's coming now, I don't know if that's super accurate, like explosive and big and loud, whereas you have such a different communication style that I really love. And then I met you and I was like, you're super

Speaker 1 funky and fun, and like I was like, oh, we're actually so similar in ways that I couldn't have known. And that was super cool too. You just never know the depth of human beings, and we assume all kinds of things, you know?

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. You just never know the depth of human beings and how multidimensional and composed we can be in some settings and circumstances, and then also when we get to meet in person like you, you know, there's a there's a power and a feistiness and a vibrancy that I'm told and a presence that I'm told. Um, so I was so happy to uh have that be received when I got to meet you and everybody else in person that was at that graduation party. And I just need to circle back. Actually, there's three, there were three co-directors of this program. We didn't have an executive director, so

Speaker 2 there were three co-directors of the program. So I just want to be fair to my colleagues.

Speaker 1 Yes, of course. See, that's good. And by the way, this is another thing with listening. If I say something that is somehow inaccurate, permission to tell me. Yeah, seriously, because I think in one episode I actually mentioned James Doty, whose book uh Into the Magic Shop kind of was a big catalyst for all this. And I didn't say Dr. Doty, and I was like, oh my gosh. And I even asked you, I'm like, Do you think I need to uh would he be upset? And you're like, I think it's okay, but sometimes that is important because you know, we want to get details correct. Uh so

Speaker 1 thank you for that. Uh I might mess something else up. In fact, I probably will, and we'll have some compassion.

Speaker 2 And me too. I'll do the same. And you know, not just the details, but also one of the things that's important for me is um one of my core values is things to be, I'm gonna say fair, but I'm grappling with the fact that the world is not fair. This I understand, but to be, you know, transparent and fair and equitable when it, you know, when that's possible. So I think there were three co-directors of the program.

Speaker 1 Yes, thank you. Three co-directors, incredible program. I'm very, very happy that I chose to do it. And my, I joke, not official PhD, but kind of like I say that I somehow attended the University of Life and earned my PhD in depression prior to. I feel like I somehow earned my PhD in compassion honorary through how this whole program ended. And I had the the chance, I guess, and the choice to actually really put this into action. That final graduation weekend. We're not going to talk about that right now, but it was super powerful. And with that, let's jump in. I want, if you could share,

Speaker 1 because you are to me like a compassion expert, meaning you've just spent what decades at this point, really in this world of also like you have more of like a scientific background, a lot of data. Tell the audience, if you're willing, what your like background is as it relates to compassion. I know I mentioned in your bio a bunch of stuff, but like, what is compassion? How'd you get into doing this work? What's meaningful about it for you?

Speaker 2 Yeah, thank you for asking. So, first of all, each one of us is our expert in our own version of compassion that I know to be true. And how I particularly got into this work is um I am interested in how things work, whether it be computers or the human brain or relationships or teams at work, team dynamics, leadership at work. Um, and I had the great opportunity to meet someone at Stanford. Her name is Kelly McGonagall, and I didn't know at the time what or kind of um I didn't know at the time that she was offering me compassion, but in retrospect, that's what I

Speaker 2 was being offered in having a conversation with her about what was going to be next in my life. Likewise, I met another person that's affiliated in the Stanford community, Jacqueline Long. And again, I had this experience. They didn't try to fix me, they didn't try to change me. There was a quiet listening, but very clear communication that was going on, both from Kelly and from Jacqueline or Jackie. And I was like, darn, what was that? Like, what was that secret sauce? And when I followed up with both of them, they both have deep practices of compassion. So that for me was um like my first kind

Speaker 2 of conscious experience of compassion. Of course, I'd received compassion throughout my life in other kinds of ways, but in a way that I received it from another adult, that I could tell that something different was going on there. It was both from Kathy, uh, from Kelly McGonagall and then from Jacqueline Long.

Speaker 1 How could you go ahead?

Speaker 2 No, no, no, you go ahead. I was just gonna say, and after that, um, since I expressed my interest in the field of compassion, Kelly was involved deeply at Stanford in the beginning uh with compassion that was happening there. I had uh strong facilitator chops across large different groups and populations, and they needed some facilitators to come on board at Stanford to pilot the first compassion protocol that we developed there. And I was one of those folks that could come in and hit the ground running at facilitating compassion protocols with a wide variety of audiences. So that was really helpful for the initial research.

Speaker 1 Oh, got it. Okay, so it was like the experience. Both in the kind of study of compassion, but also facilitation, because that's a whole other skill set, right? To be able to share the work and lead others to understand it and use it. The question that came to me that I kind of interrupted you, uh, which by the way, listeners, it happens. Okay, keep going. Interruptions happen sometimes. I always try not to, and then sometimes we get excited. But that is something that's always something I like to point out. Because sometimes being interrupted can be very uncomfortable, but sometimes it's just what happens. Um, you said

Speaker 1 that when you experienced compassion from these two individuals, that it like it felt different. It like risk you received it differently, or you said something like that. How what what was the difference? Like, was it like your body felt different, your mind felt different? Like what how how was that different?

Speaker 2 Yeah, it was um, I have to think back because this was a couple, a couple years ago, a long time ago. Yeah, what I recall from the experience was I was, you know, sharing both some difficulties and some hopes and dreams about what would come next. And it was kind of the first times I'd shared that with someone else that were in like position, professional positions that I would aspire to. And so initially I was nervous and yet I was not met with nervousness. They, you know, met me with a calm steadiness, and my, you know, my body was initially amped up, but then also started

Speaker 2 to settle in the rhythm uh that they were in. They asked insightful or to me meaningful questions that was that was consistent with what I was sharing, and yet also a couple of steps ahead and in the direction that I wanted to go. So the quality of questions that they asked. And I felt like they were both there, like in service of me, but that they were also there to also offer their perspectives too, because I had sought them out as experts. So they weren't just being supportive and reflecting back, they also and they also added their own expertise and wisdom too. So that was a

Speaker 2 pretty different, um, that was just a pretty different kind of experience. The meetings weren't long and yet they felt very spacious, and we covered a lot of important terrain. And I think that that's something that you and I do as well. Like sometimes our meetings are not necessarily, or the when we get together, it's not necessarily very long, but I feel like we cover in a deeply meaningful way some pretty, you know, some pretty broad terrain. So those are some of the qualities that I remember from that experience. And it left an indelible mark that I followed up with them and like was like, what the

Speaker 2 heck was that? And they let me know that compassion was a core part of their personal practice and also their professional practice. And then I took the next steps with Stanford and Kelly after that.

Speaker 1 Oh my gosh, I love it. Calm steadiness, quality questions, and being in service of you and sharing their wisdom. Like that to, and it was spacious. How cool is that? That to me is like the ultimate time spent with anybody. Like, if imagine if all the time we spent with people felt that way. Uh, and compassion, I think, can help us do that. So, compassion as a tool, that is, I kind of want to go deeper into that for a moment because I gotta say, in the first Stanford weekend, we had, I think, what, four retreats. That was probably the thing that I heard that I'd

Speaker 1 never heard. A, the distinction between compassion and empathy. That was an interesting topic that I want to touch upon as well. I always thought they were kind of the same. Honestly, the words, it felt like, oh, being compassionate, empathetic means you like feel for people or you feel what's going on with other people and you kind of care. Like they implied there was like a kindness. But the distinction was that where's empathy, at least how it landed for me, and I want you to clarify if I got it. I graduated, but maybe I missed something. Um, empathy, and I'm an empath, 100%. Like literally, I can

Speaker 1 feel other people's feelings. So when I'm with someone who's in a deep state of grief, I usually am crying. Like my body almost just naturally does that. My heart, whatever, my whole being. Whereas compassion was introduced as a choice, meaning it's not just this thing that happens, it's something that you you're choosing and then you do. So it's like the action that you take. So it's wow, I'm seeing that you're really suffering right now. Um, I'd love to help. What do you need? And and doing that. So um, can you talk a little bit about that? Because for some reason that just blew my mind. I

Speaker 1 was like, whoa, that's a very different thing than just feeling, right?

Speaker 2 Yeah, excellent. Well, you you are uh you know that you're a remarkable human being that's compassionate and a masterful listener, and you explained that so very well. So, on the one hand, the definition or the description that I use for compassion is that compassion is a response to suffering. It's not the only response to suffering that we have, but it's a pivotal one. And it goes beyond empathy and a feeling of a concern, or I'm even going to suggest today, even the feeling of compassion, like the emotion of compassion. Um, and it goes into compassion fosters strength in the face of suffering, resilience to withstand life's

Speaker 2 challenges, or to meet those challenges, or even grow through those challenges, and then the courage to choose to act effectively. So compassion is a response to suffering, you know, and when in the field of compassion, when we use the word suffering, it's not only extreme situations, but it's also the stress and the struggle and the difficulty and the complexity and the conflict that we have in our lives and that uncertainty that we have in our lives too. So compassion is a response to suffering. And I'm suggesting it's more than empathy, it's even more than a feeling or an emotion. When it's really an experience that fosters

Speaker 2 strength and resilience and courage to act effectively.

Speaker 1 I love that so much because I wrote down the words strength, resilience, and courage. And to me, those words are very uh like powerful. Like it's almost like, I don't know if this is exactly, but they have like more of this warrior feeling than like the gentle, loving feeling, which compassion implies. So it's interesting how that word that I always saw as a very soft, which by the way, soft is not good or bad, hard is not good or bad. I really want to make that clear. I think we often do that. There's a time I say to be fierce, and there's a time to like,

Speaker 1 like I say as a coach, I will kick, like I will beat the crap out of you, not physically, but like I will, I will be intense with you. Sometimes you need someone to go no or yes, right? But sometimes you just need a hug and you just need to be held. To me, compassion always felt more like the hug. But when I listen to what you said, it's almost like, oh no, no. It's also the courage to maybe say the thing that is hard or do the thing or find resilience that you didn't have within yourself. And that's kind of the fierce compassion that we

Speaker 1 didn't cover a ton in the program, but that's what I want to cover with you because we we are both kind of it seems inspired by that concept. And that's not talked about a lot. So what do you have to say about uh fierce compassion? I feel like it's like the next or another level of it.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I agree with you that the like fierce compassion is the next, like really the next level of compassion to consider, or maybe we could call it another aspect or dimension of compassion. And I get to fierce compassion first by considering compassion to be a choice. So I just want to say a little bit about that, and then I can pop over into fierce compassion. And you're right, oftentimes compassion is experienced or thought of as that common compassion, that it's more emotional support. Um, you know, maybe we tend to tears with someone or it's pulling at our heartstrings. That common compassion is oftentimes what we think

Speaker 2 of when, you know, we think of compassion. And it's actually oftentimes what's being taught in trainings, right? It's more of this kind of emotional support and understanding. Compassion is emotional support and understanding. I think of that as common compassion. But then there's other dimensions of compassion and uh fierce compassion for me, fierce compassion is this capacity to take a stand and to take assertive action in the face of injustice or the face of harm or the face of difficulty or the face of conflict, that fierce compassion. And for me, that arises out of making compassion a choice. It's not compassion as an emotion that comes and

Speaker 2 goes, but it's compassion as a conscious choice, a way that I'm going to live my life, or compassion as a compass. And when I've taken that stand to be compassionate out of a choice, to be compassionate as a choice, then that starts to apply in a lot of uh situations, which could give rise to fierce compassion. So that's a little that's a little bit about how I think of fierce compassion. It's taking a stand that can be assertive in the face of conflict or adversity or uh inequity or injustice. And that actually arises out of uh making uh compassion uh a conscious choice that we're we're

Speaker 2 making or taking. How does that land for you?

Speaker 1 It lands a lot is happening within me right now. First, I wrote down conscious choice and a compass, and I thought, wow, these are all C's. So that's that was just kind of a fun language thing I noticed. But then the other thing that came for me was I just started thinking about what happened with me and how also the first part of compassion really, we learn this too, and just like masterful listening, listeners, I've said this, you've probably heard it, unless this is your first time, and what a great new episode to jump in on. It starts within. You cannot masterfully listen, I think, to

Speaker 1 the outside world if you haven't first realized that it starts within. How are you listening to the voices in your own head? And then it's the same with compassion. If we want to make compassionate choices, if we want to be compassionate beings, how are we showing up with ourselves in moments of challenge or difficulty or trigger or pain, right? Those are it's it's much easier to be compassionate, frankly, when it's all good and things feel good, right? It that's not where that's not the test, right? But what do you do in those moments? And for me, masterfully listening in a compassionate way to me, but like

Speaker 1 the me, the voice in me that's actually can calm down and and be compassionate towards my own pain. So then I just started thinking about what happened at Stanford with me, and then I started thinking about when's a good time to tell the story, because I always do that in the show, is you speak like what you said makes so much sense. And I wonder if it would help as an example. For me, I like examples. Like, okay, I hear it, it's a choice, and then like, well, what do you do? So you have an example and then you have a choice. So I was thinking,

Speaker 1 is this a good time for me to share a little bit?

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's a good time. Why don't you share a little bit about how uh your your experience with fierce compassion and masterful listening with yourself?

Speaker 1 Yeah, okay, let's see. I never overthink the stories, and I think this one's challenging for me because it's so personal. And I also didn't really share much, which was in itself an interesting experience because you know, we're in a program with a ton of people, and my experience with with was with another participant. So I was first like, okay, so here I am, and I'm having this experience that's super uh what's I mean, it was hard, honestly, it was challenging. And yet I'm also like, well, I'm in a compassion program. So let me try to use my tools. And then my comp my capstone project. And

Speaker 1 listeners, if you're not familiar with this program, which probably a lot of you are not, as part of this program, we had to create something, right? And it was called a capstone. I created something called a compassion pill, which to bottom line it in 30 seconds, uh, is you know, uh, is imagine a natural uh vitamin or I used lifesavers because I made the first uh beta ones that you could take in a moment of challenge, and um kind of like if you took a benzo, right, when you were having an anxiety attack, which could be super helpful. I wanted to create something that you could

Speaker 1 take in a moment of overwhelm and and I guide you through, comes with a little card, kind of a full body elevator through your different energy centers so you can connect with your mind, your heart, your gut, and just kind of ground uh into a bit of compassion. And I started using it because I was struggling basically. Uh, and that's why I said to you, I think I earned my PhD in that last weekend, because here's an example for the listener of fierce compassion and how I chose to use it. And um, where would I start? I'm gonna start with this. Essentially, and that, and then

Speaker 1 I wanna note can you remember, Monica, that one thing I want you to then talk about, and I don't want to forget, is that when we do programs like this, like anyone who's out there, and I'm assuming if you're listening to this, you might be a human being who's interested in not just compassion, but in you know, personal development, professional development, growth. I've done a lot of these programs. And in these programs, you know, you're assuming, I assumed, I'm gonna meet a lot of other amazing people who are on the same path. And yes, however, our paths are all unique. What brings me to that program

Speaker 1 is not what brings anyone else to the program. And I met someone in the program. Uh, he had kind of a similar background, but very different, different country, different life experience, but we really connected. And uh this person came and actually stayed with me for a while. And I really liked this person. We had, I mean, so many things. I think so many people who are drawn to this work are really drawn to it for a reason. Um, I can't assume and I don't like to speak for people, and I'm just sharing my experience. But what I discovered once I was really in the same space

Speaker 1 with this person was uh that his way of being was very different than mine. I actually didn't feel compassion or empathy. It was actually the first time that I felt uh some narcissism. Like I'd studied this. Like I'm not a therapist, but I'm I I say I'm like an unlicensed therapist because of all my coach training, psychology training, years in analysis. And I heard of the idea of narcissism. At one point, I even thought, am I narcissistic? Because people had said, Oh, you're so full of yourself and you make things about you. And I'm like, okay. But then I realized, wait a minute, narcissism is actually

Speaker 1 a lack of empathy, which is definitely not me. But I experienced this person to be truly lacking empathy in a way that really scared me. I was having a moment one day where honestly, I don't even remember what the cause was, but I was very upset. And I was laying on the ground in a fetal position, kind of just trying to handle my emotions. I'm like, for those understanding astrology, I'm all water. I'm a four planet and cancer. I feel at a level that is beyond most humans. And I even thought, poor guy, this guy who truly said he was stoic. Uh yes, there was a

Speaker 1 coldness and a lack of empathy. And I'm like, wow, he's with like an emotional shaman. That must suck because we were so on opposite sides of the spectrum. So I actually thought that must be hard for him too. But I'm literally in a fetal position on the ground. And he just sat there and didn't do anything or say anything. And I was in this state of I was aware of that, and it was so weird because I can't imagine me in his shoes watching someone in that much pain and not somehow being affected by it, acknowledging it, trying to help. It equally scared me and in

Speaker 1 some level impressed me and like, wow, that must be nice. That you genuinely, like, I would have been in pain watching me. And what was fascinating was when I brought this up, as at some point I think he did say, Do you want, do you need me to like do something? Or and I'm like, No, actually, I I need you to not even do anything right now. I said, What I really need is I I needed to like, I need to be held and kind of loved, not in even some romantic way, just like on a human level. On a human level. And his reaction was

Speaker 1 honestly, it was so telling, and it was where I saw, wow, I I could even have compassion in my own pain. He said, I want to want to hold you, but I don't. And I was like, okay. First of all, thank you for being honest about that, because that's brave. And also, oh, it was so heartbreaking. It's like, I want to want to do it, and I just don't. And I was like, that was kind of it was sad. I felt sad for him. And I was just like, I don't need I can't relate to that. Like that lack of empathy or feeling, I actually didn't

Speaker 1 feel safe. Um, I thought, is that narcissism? And I think at some point I didn't mention anything to you or anyone in the program. I thought it was very important for me to just finish it. I didn't want to bias anyone else's experience of him, because that was important. That's like one of my values is I want to hold my own. But now looking back after it was all done, it was like, wow, I had to get through that moment. And then I had to stay with this person. And then when he left, I just sit through the graduation weekend and see this person's face and

Speaker 1 other stuff had happened. But that was just in a moment for the listener that I want to share fierce compassion because I laid there and I hugged myself. I that was it. I realized I'm not gonna get what I need. The thing I need felt so simple to give, right? I was like, what? And yet I didn't lash out or yell or scream. I definitely did that in other moments. But in that moment, I thought, you know what? You can hold yourself. And I did my compassion pill moment. I went, I cried, I took care of myself. And honestly, I woke up the next day and

Speaker 1 I was fine. So that was super empowering because I actually thought I would have loved a kind, compassionate, empathetic human who was staying at my house, who I was kind of taking care of to hold me, but he couldn't. And he didn't want to, or he wanted to want to. It didn't matter. I did it for myself. To me, that's like fierce compassion. Um so yeah.

Speaker 2 Yep, that's fierce compassion, that combination of uh, you know, compassion or tenderness in that moment, and then recognizing your needs and then turning with strength towards your own, you know, offering yourself compassion, you're turning towards your yourself and your own uh compassion within you. Like you said, you maybe reached out later to blame or to yell or do something like that, but in that moment that you turned towards yourself and offered you and offered towards yourself that fierce compassion. And I'm just a little curious. Uh you know, I don't want to overlay compassion being a choice here, however was it a choice? I mean, do you

Speaker 2 kind of recall making a choice to comfort yourself? Like, ooh, I'm not going to get this from this other human being that's here. So I'm gonna actually choose to comfort myself in this moment. I'm just curious. And that may not fit uh your experience either.

Speaker 1 You know, as I recall, we had so many moments of this, honestly. I'm kind of looking back, I'm like, wow, that was honestly the fiercest compassion was probably truly me. Uh for like being compassionate with myself when I finally was like, you need to get out of here. Like I was trying to be so open because you know I've said this a lot. Trauma explains behavior, but it doesn't excuse it. We both had our own, funny enough, very similar trauma. And I went one direction, he went another. Some people, when they experience emotional neglect, become, I think I went this way. I like studied this. I

Speaker 1 wanted to open my heart more. I wanted to like mother myself and others the way I wasn't. He went the opposite way, where I think emotion and love made him so uncomfortable that it was actually easy to convince me that I was somehow crazy. That was a whole I sensed a little bit of like this gaslighting and the narcissism where you're just I really don't think he knew what he was doing. I don't think this is a bad person who was trying to hurt me. I think that's what scared me. Is in his reality, I was reflected that I was unstable, mentally ill, that I was

Speaker 1 manipulating him with all my gifts and love. And I really, you know, I was like, okay, hold on. I really had to look at myself. And that happened. I got a message the weekend right of graduation, where I basically received this assessment of me, whereas I'd asked for, do you want to share some gratitude for what we did get of our time together? And I received a thorough assessment of my of me as a human being. And it was so interesting because I got so upset and I got so all the all the feelings that we don't like to feel. And then I had to get

Speaker 1 on Zoom for three days, and literally Zoom was it was sometimes the universe has a funny sense of humor. If you have many screens of Zoom, you can choose like to move a screen away. And however I did it, he appeared on the first page, and I was like, I don't want to see your face. It was like that's why I say I got the PhD, but the fierce choice was I I was sitting there and I was so uncomfortable. My body felt tense. I wanted to cry when we got into our sharing. I couldn't share the main thing on my mind because I chose not

Speaker 1 to bring that into the space. And I just at some point, I think I even like on our break, I just went and I sat with myself and I'm like, okay, you're either gonna have a horrible weekend. It and I was so sad about that. I was mad at him, I was mad at me. I'm like, I can't believe I'm giving my power and energy to this human being. And then I thought, or how about? And here was the choice. I said, can you just be okay with the fact that you kind of hate him and you can't find compassion in this moment? And I could.

Speaker 1 And the fact that I allowed myself to not find compassion for a gaslighting narcissist, in my experience, was kind of, I took a deep breath. I'm like, you know what? I that makes sense. You got hurt, you were attacked, and I did all kinds of things I wish I'd done better too. I just owned them. And that gave me some space where I started focusing on the other faces, the other people. And I gotta say, at the end of that weekend, like there's another episode with Dekla, an amazing participant, and Will. Like I met other people and I realized, oh my gosh, I'd been putting energy

Speaker 1 on this one person. And now I thought, okay, but I don't have to keep doing that. And I can allow myself to be mad at him and to be pissed, because trying to have compassion for every single human at every moment is also kind of unrealistic. And that was my choice, which was kind of amazing. It's like letting myself be upset actually made me feel better.

Speaker 2 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So the choice to let yourself be upset, the choice to uh not make yourself have compassion for someone else in that moment. Um, and the choice also, I'm hearing you say, Svatlana, to take your attention, pull your attention away from one individual, and then place it out into the larger group. You know, I've heard the podcasts that you did with Dekla and the one that just came out with Will, you met some remarkable people in that program, which I've heard you say you met them on the very yeah, you met those folks in the last weekend of graduation that were actually going to be

Speaker 2 part of your future now. So I just think that that is um a remarkable trajectory of experiences to not only have gone through on one weekend, but you also had the time in advance in person with someone that's giving you, I don't know, feedback. I'm not sure I like that word, but we'll just that you're unstable or mentally ill or you're somehow, you know, manipulating the situation. Um

Speaker 2 fierce compassion that you were offering to yourself uh throughout the process, and then particularly on that weekend. And I'm gonna say again, like turning towards choosing, you know, making compassion a choice uh each step of the way as well.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's funny. I met Will and Dekla in the last 15 minutes. Yes, that's what was wild because both of them spoke. I think. Remember how few people were like, tell us about your experience. And I was like, oh my gosh. Um, yes, to everything you said. And you know, the other part, and I think this is important for the listener to hear. Um, the other choice I made, and this was a very new choice, and I was like, wow, I am very emotional, meaning my feelings drive my actions. And what I did this time was fascinating. I took an entire day, and whereas I would

Speaker 1 have like, I wanted to respond with all kinds of things that I uh felt like I had to get out of me, but I didn't send them. I took a day, I must have written 30 pages of like, I mean, it was everything from I got clinical and I was like, I narcissism, gaslighting, like mental health issues. Do you realize? Like, I was like trying to show that actually what's mentally healthy is if you're being attacked to respond in a certain way, like that is actually what's healthy versus, I mean, I was I was going all over the place. I even went to this tea shop

Speaker 1 where I taken him. I sat there in that energy. I I was like, I need to feel this, but I didn't send that. And when I did respond, it was shorter. It was something that I thought, would I be happy knowing this is out in the world? That if someone ever read that email or he looked back on it or I looked back on it, would I like who I showed up as? Was it authentic? It wasn't me trying to be like, whatever. It was me being like, this is me responding from a place of fierce compassion too. Because I was uh honest and I think

Speaker 1 that might have been hard, but I was also trying to be supportive because I will do more programs like this. And he probably will. And I almost thought of the next woman who meets him, or any man or any woman or any being who's on this journey of development and comes across a very wounded person, which we all are in some way. And I thought if I could present to him a reflection of what actually his impact was, because we all have an intended impact and we have an unintended impact. And one thing that we talked about also in the program that I want to share,

Speaker 1 I don't think I've shared this on this podcast, is that we are not responsible for people's feelings, but we contribute to people's experience. So when you see that someone is deeply suffering because of something you said or did, yes, technically they need to handle that. But this person was so clearly responsible for my experience, as I was for his. Um, and I that was a choice too, that I didn't send the long, drawn out thing, which I had a right to. I I sent a short thing and I and I sent resources and I said a boundary also. I said, never ever contact me unless you

Speaker 1 are ready to genuinely say you're sorry for how you treated me and and just using almost my biggest wound against me. You know, I've had mental health issues in the past. I talk about it. That's what I do. So to take someone's pain and try to use that against them is so just cruel that I really made that boundary and I kept it. When I I even I dropped him off and I turned around, I drove away and I didn't look back. I'd never done that. Because when I I really liked this person, I feel like I loved him on a human level, truly. And I

Speaker 1 didn't even look back. And that was cool. That was a new way of like you go forward, you take my friend used to say, get the message, forget the messenger. And that was like the epitome of like, I got the message and I let the messenger go because I got the message. So that's the action too. Can you just get the message and use it versus get stuck in, oh gosh, but what about, you know? But you know, do that too. Just maybe a day and not think this would have taken years. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. A day instead of a decade, right?

Speaker 1 Yeah. Uh-huh. That's a good shirt. That's a good motto. I'm telling you, my friends said they've seen me through a lot of other heartbreaks. It has taken me months, if not years, to get through what I just went through with this person. And honestly, I've barely even thought about him since then. I've taken, which is amazing in itself, not because it didn't matter, because I was like, I am not gonna choose to do that again. And I didn't think it was a choice until now. So I told you this compassion program saved my life in that way because I had such a real personal experience in

Speaker 1 it, right? Not like it wasn't theoretical that I was even practicing with outside. So thank you for that. But also, that happens, right? Like in these programs. I think when I finally told you a little bit about it, you were like, well, actually, you know, narcissists can be drawn to compassion. And so could we talk a little bit about that outside of my own experience? Like, what have you seen, or what would you say to people who are experiencing that or might experience that?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I'm happy to talk about that. And I actually

Speaker 2 sorry.

Speaker 1 I'll take a tea break too.

Speaker 2 So, Svetlana, I'm happy to talk about that. And I've got some actionable items if people or when people are considering programs. But I'm curious, can I just circle back to what you were just sharing and highlight three things that you did that were so skillful that I think could benefit others by highlighting them? So, first of all, you know, with fierce compassion or relating to compassion as a choice, uh emotions are still part of that process, which you just demonstrated. You know, you worked with yourself, you said you wrote 30 pla pages, you went to different uh places that you had been together. And for me,

Speaker 2 that sounds like um from my perspective, that sounds like you were doing some of the emotional work and some of the processing and some of the experiencing that was a part of the experience that you had with this other person. So I just want to to make sure that you know, fierce compassion and compassion is a choice still includes the work that we have to do as uh, you know, human beings with our emotions. And you shared a little bit about that. However, in addition to that, you also shared that there was a moment where you were coaching yourself and you were thinking about um how

Speaker 2 do you want to show up in the world? And how I remember when we first talked about this, you said, how will I feel good about myself in the future? Like, how do I want to respond in a way that's consistent with how you want to show up in the world and how you want to feel good about yourself? And you call that a little bit more of the clinical part or the coach part uh of yourself, which you offer to countless others, but you are offering that coaching and uh mentoring towards yourself. So, that to me also is a really important part of compassion as

Speaker 2 a choice and particularly fierce compassion, that there's some coaching, that there's some mentoring, there's some deliberate choices that were being made, and you were making some choices about how you wanted to show up. So that's the second thing that I wanted to point out. And then lastly, such an important consideration uh with compassion and particularly fierce compassion, or compassion is a choice, is setting boundaries. And you didn't go into the boundary that you set, but you clearly set a boundary uh with yourself in regards to this person. So I'm happy to talk about the actionable items around programs. And I'm just wondering, do you want to

Speaker 2 say anything else about that boundary now? Or does that feel like does it feel complete for you in this moment? And we'll save that for another episode.

Speaker 1 Thank you for that question. I want to say one thing about boundaries because this actually became really clear to me this year. Uh, I was misunderstanding boundaries my whole life. Well, first because nobody taught me boundaries, because I had none growing up. It was just, yeah, truly. It's uh I joke about that with my parents now because it just, yeah, it wasn't something they were taught. So I have I've often been told, uh, not recently, because I've gotten actually quite, I respect I get it now, uh, but that I was pushing boundaries, pushing boundaries. And I was like, what does that even mean? So here's the

Speaker 1 thing: I was thinking that a boundary is something that like I say to someone, hey, don't do this. I don't like when you do this. However, actually, it's not someone doing or not doing, it's you being clear about if you do this, I will do this. So I said to this person, do not contact me again unless you blah blah or else I the implication was I'm not gonna respond. I'm not gonna be connected to you. So me keeping that means if he did reach out and hear this podcast and go, oh, I want to, I wouldn't respond, right? It's a boundary is that you stick

Speaker 1 to what you say or ask for or whatever. And that really flipped it around because I was always wanting others to respect what I was asking for or needing, but that's not what an actual boundary is. It was like you gotta show up. I recently also stopped talking to another person I really love, because he kept doing something that kept hurting me. And I kept asking for him not to do that. And it kept happening. But what did I do? I kept being like, that's okay. And then I'd reach out and we'd keep going, and then it would happen. And finally I said, That's it. I

Speaker 1 can't keep doing that. Because then you're basically showing them that what you're saying doesn't really matter. If I keep saying what X happens, then Y happens, but then I don't do the Y, they're not gonna believe what you're saying. So having integrity and sticking to whatever that is is hard. You know, I some part of me, I like, I want to forgive everybody. And again, even this human, I already forgive you, right? Wherever you're out there, I just want people to be well because hurt people, hurt people. I don't want to hold on to resentment. What is it? I think the Buddha says um holding on

Speaker 1 to resentment is like drinking poison and thinking the other person's gonna die or get hurt. Like, and it's not easy to get to the point where you really process. That's what you said. I processed, and also completion can come from within. A lot of people think that they need the other person to complete. I wanted to complete with him so badly. We knew each other for six months. There were so many good things, and I couldn't complete, and it was so frustrating. And then I thought, but I can complete. I don't actually need him or anyone to complete a story with someone, and that's super powerful

Speaker 1 because whoever's listening out there, I'm sure you've had some relationship that might have not gone the way you thought. I can kind of assume that if you're human, that's happened. And maybe you haven't completed it, and yet you can without them. That's a fierce kind of compassion, too.

Speaker 2 So two really important messages. You can complete your own story, doesn't necessarily need to involve the other person. And then if I have this right, Svetmana, you're saying also that you are setting the boundary and you are actually upholding the boundary for yourself, not relying on or even maybe expecting or thinking that the other person needs to uphold that boundary, but you set it and then you're going to uphold it for yourself. Well done.

Speaker 1 And it feels good, even though it's sad. Like there's still a sadness I feel about anyone who I had to uphold a boundary with or any relationships that don't keep flourishing, right? I mean, I'm such a lover. I just want to keep growing and loving. And sometimes that's just not what happens. And it is really sad. But I think this was also funny enough. Um, I was really into stoicism because that's one thing he actually gave me as a gift. This idea of I got really into what does it mean to be courageous and wise and just and um uh oh my gosh, what's the fourth

Speaker 1 pillar? Really? I haven't thought of it in a while. Courage, wisdom, justice. Uh no, wait, I'm gonna get it. Breathe for a second. Courage, wisdom, moderation. Of course, that's the one I forgot.

Speaker 2 That's so funny. Courage, wisdom, justice, moderation.

Speaker 1 That's clearly the one that I have not practiced as much. But um now it's funny. I just laughed so hard that I forgot. Why was I why did I bring up stoicism?

Speaker 2 I was saying it was in connection to that. Was uh oh, yes, you know, one of the things that did emerge out of this that was meaningful. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yes, but also it was the most emotionally triggering situation that I actually handled in the least emotional way ever for me. And that weirdly, I was like, oh, that is kind of stoic because I did my best. Like at the end, it was actually a very calm moment where we both kind of were like, I think it's best that you leave as soon as possible. There wasn't a massive in that moment fight, right? And again, there were other moments of that. And I just want to give the listeners out there some permission to allow yourself to be who you are in your tough moments, even if

Speaker 1 that means I recently had a friend told me she's been with someone for a long time and they're still kind of like engaged, but they haven't set a wedding date. And she's like, I threw something at him one time. And I was like, honestly, I'm not gonna condone throwing things at people, but I'm saying we all have moments of pain where we might do things we regret. We might hurt people, and that sucks. And I'm not saying it's okay, but I'm saying it is what's happening. And the first step to actually not doing that kind of stuff is noticing it and choosing a different thing, meaning

Speaker 1 walking away when you feel like you're about to throw that thing, you walk into a different room, right? I've definitely wanted to throw some things, okay, at some, at this guy, at other people. But once I throw that thing, if I have, and I don't know if I've actually thrown anything, but I did once make someone so mad that they punched a wall, right? I thought, okay, um, that is not feel good 15 minutes later or the next morning, right? You kind of go, I wish I'd dot, dot, dot. So if you're listening out there and you're like, man, I don't like how I've been showing

Speaker 1 up, or I don't like how someone's been showing up, cool. You can choose a different choice. You can be like, what would fierce compassion do? That's the question I ask in my compassion pill experience. What would compassion do? What would love do? That's a really cool question.

Speaker 3 Uh really cool question, right?

Speaker 1 Because we think of feeling, but what would it do? Would it throw the shoe? I don't think it'd throw the shoe. You might put the shoes on and go take a walk.

Speaker 1 Take that shoe, do not throw it, just put it on your feet and go take a walk, breathe, and then make a choice, right? Um, so yeah, that was excellent. Yeah, that was a nice wrap-up. Excellent.

Speaker 2 Excellent. I want to just offer a new definition for fierce compassion that you just shared with us, Vetlana. The most emotionally triggering experience, and then handling it in the least emotional way. That feels like fierce compassion, most emotionally triggering experience. And yet, since fierce compassion is a way to, you know, affect change and uh, you know, endure situations in ways that grow increasingly. More effective handling that in the least emotional way. So a new definition or description of fierce compassion. Very well done.

Speaker 1 Thank you. I will take that compliment and receive it because I always say emotions are great. I often was like, oh, I'm so you're telling me I'm so emotional and sensitive. Those are beautiful things, but I try not to make choices when I'm super emotional, whether I'm super happy or super sad, frankly. Because when I look back at those choices, I'm like, oh, that wasn't me. It's some more balanced, like, there's really that middle way, the balance when you're just neutral, then you can think more clearly. That's helpful. And then you're not making a choice from a place of rage because you know that choice is

Speaker 1 probably not going to be the thing that will feel good when you look back. And even if it, you know, forgive yourself though, if you did, because we can't go back in time, right? And but we but we can choose something now that will affect the future. Like the next time I go in a program, oh, I have so many lessons. I have so many things. And I hope he does. I hope everyone listening can start going, okay, cool. So life doesn't always go the way we think, and people don't always show up the way we think. I thought it was gonna be sweet and gentle

Speaker 1 and compassionate. It was so not that. And yet, now what? Right? So that was kind of the question I asked you before. I don't know if you want to comment something on the idea of a lot of people are doing this work right now. There's a lot of work on go and learn and coach and develop, awesome. But what happens when you go and you meet humans on this path who um aren't uh narcissistic or have other mental, I mean, is narcissism actually a it's a mental health condition, right? Like in the DSM. I don't actually know on the clinic, no, well, whatever it is. The

Speaker 1 point is, but people are coming in with all kinds of challenging, I don't know, ways of being, showing up. I just don't know how to describe it. I don't have honestly a lot of experience with having someone like that show up in my life, other than this, but I a lot of people do.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 1 What do you have?

Speaker 2 Yeah. Well, I was thinking about this, Fatlana, from the pos uh from the perspective or through the lens of people that are interested in participating in programs. Maybe it's a compassion program or a mindfulness program or some kind of professional development program. I know there's lots of yoga and yoga therapy programs are out there. So I don't know if I'm gonna exactly answer the question that you were just posing, like what to do when you meet with when you meet someone that's like this. Um I'd have to think about that a little bit more. But can I ask, could I answer this from the perspective of

Speaker 2 considering a program and maybe some things you might do before you even get into the program? Yes. Okay, I can I can think about it from there. I can answer it from there. So one of the things um I came up with three things. First of all, when you're considering programs across this space of professional development or personal development, one of the things you would probably want to consider is does the program have published community guidelines? So those would be guidelines that are codes of conduct or ways that the community is going to be together, or um, you know, practices and approaches that the community has

Speaker 2 that create spaces for people to be able to learn and engage, which means we need to lean into you know some of our uh zones of discomfort to learn and be engaged in processes and practices. And yet also it would be fantastic if there's some agreed upon ways to be together. So I would invite people to be sure to take a look at the program's community guidelines. And ideally, those guidelines would be published, right? That they would be making those guidelines available publicly. So then they were, you know, publicly taking a stand for what they uphold within their community. And it they might outline things like

Speaker 2 expected behaviors or language or kind of the norms of the community and the culture of that program. So that's one thing that you could check out the published community guidelines to be ensure that it's in sync with your own values and your intentions. And I wanted to say too, you know, it's a little bit hard to do this because I've been someone that's participated in programs and I'm usually just enthusiastic about the program. I want to be seen as a good student, you know, like an eager learner. Um, so I think what you were just sharing, on the one hand, to acknowledge those kinds of emotions,

Speaker 2 and then on the other, to bring some pragmatism and do a little bit of this looking in advance. So one suggestion is uh take a look at the published community guidelines. And then I have two more. Be sure to talk with the leaders of the program. Um and when I say talk, I actually mean a little bit more like interview the leaders of a program. You know, they should be really delighted to hear from somebody that's interested in participating in their program. And then in that conversation, you can ask about the program's approach and its philosophy, if there's specific uh practices that are taught and how

Speaker 2 those might be taught. Um, and just you know, check out for yourself in that conversation if what you're hearing and what you're sensing and what you're feeling aligns with who you are and then who you might want to be in the future as well. So I think having a conversation, and I'm really suggesting that the participant interview the leaders of the program or a leader in the program, uh, that's another step that they could take too. And can I just give you one more and then see if you have any comments or observations? Yes, please. Excellent. So the last thing is get some firsthand of experience

Speaker 2 with the culture of the program by attending some of its workshops or if it's got some introductory kind of meetups that could happen. And I've got to say, you know, one of my personality, a couple of my personality traits is I'm really conscientious and I'm loyal. And I was considering a therapeutic training program uh kind of at the same time as I was uh meeting some of the researchers and the scientists and the experts that I'd work with at Stanford. And I had done the two things that I just said. I looked at the community guidelines and I met with some leaders of the program. This

Speaker 2 was not Stanford, this was a different therapeutic program. And I went and attended some of the workshops. And um when I experienced the workshops and experienced some of their introductory sessions in person, I realized it was not a fit for me. So I had checked the first two boxes. I think you really need to get in there and uh check out the culture of the program uh firsthand. You know, go and attend some Zoom sessions, um, uh attend some workshops in person if that's possible. And pay attention to how the program is actually fostering things that are important to you. If belonging is important or inclusivity

Speaker 2 or non-judgment, um, the use of language or behaviors, you know, go and check it out with through your first hand experience in those workshops or in those kinds of, you know, even if it's a Zoom meeting, that's still getting a direct experience of what's being taught and how it's being taught and trained. So those were three ideas that I had. Uh be sure to make sure the community guidelines that they have them and they align with what you're interested in. Talk to some of the leaders and then go check out the program, you know, in whatever way is possible from your own direct experience.

Speaker 1 I love that. That's super helpful, especially if it's, you know, like a year-long program, right? Like if it's just like a weekend thing, I've definitely been like, oh, this feels like a cool thing to do. And yet, yeah, bit of research. I love that too. Interview the leaders. Like, take us, like, if if leaders don't want to talk to a potential uh student, that's an interesting thing, right?

Speaker 2 That would be an interesting thing to note. Yeah, that would be an interesting thing to note, yeah. And I was really thinking, you know, these days with these kinds of professional or personal development programs, oftentimes they're multi-month, you know, if not a year or even some programs or two. And holy cow, the price tags are getting up there. So I definitely think it's worth um taking a couple of these steps, both from the how do I understand this program better and is it a fit for me? And is this an a program that I want to invest in? And is this program actually going to be

Speaker 2 investing in me too? So I think looking at from those perspectives could be helpful.

Speaker 1 I love it. Okay, so what's coming up for me is is there anyone out there or any program out there that you would just like want to mention as something the listeners could look into? Maybe it's someone who's done some work in this space or um yeah, anything you'd recommend? Obviously, we've mentioned Stanford often. So anyone who's interested in looking at any of the work Stanford's doing, of course, do that. But any anything else that feels like it'd be a great resource for people to just check out?

Speaker 2 That's a great question. I'm gonna point people back to paying attention to the work that you're doing, Svetlana, with masterful listening right now and other kinds of um podcasts or information that's available, you know, on YouTube. I think that there's just such a great amount of information that's available through those channels right now, that that's really what's captured my interest rather than, you know, the multi-month high price tag program. I know that sounds um maybe a little bit surprising, uh, but I just think there's a little bit of a um, I just think there's a little bit of an opportunity to see what else is out

Speaker 2 there before um jumping into uh these other kinds of more multi-month commitments.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah, for sure. I was more thinking, like, do you have a favorite? Like I uh Huberman Labs, right? Andrew Huberman, I told you I I like that's a great podcast. I love Joe Dispenza, anything he talks about. Just for me, it's anything like anyone who reminds you that your mind and the stories you tell yourself, the the choices you make uh based on whatever information you're getting into your space is is so powerful. Like we are so much more powerful than I think we've been taught to be. And a lot of that is the mindfulness of just like Will's work. Last episode, Will Schneider, their

Speaker 1 podcast, Men Talking Mindfulness, so cool. I even told Will, I'm like, man, I was like, I I hung out with this dude who was so needing the work you do. And then I met you. Thank you. Like, there's so many people doing amazing work. I always try to link something if if we bring up a book or something at the end. So if before we close, uh we come up with any other um anything we want to send the listeners in terms of some resources, we can always do that. But um, thank you for telling them to listen to me and you because I I mean,

Speaker 1 yeah, I I really, really believe in the power of masterful listening. And I'm kind of so, I'm not really surprised, but I'm like, how has never how has no one done this? Even when they come up with the term, I was like, that's so good. There's no way it's available. And it was. And I'm like, because it's mine, meaning not like I own it, but like I just want to put it out for free. I like right, like a great school where you can have fun and hopefully be entertained, but really take something away. So actually, I told a story. Would you be willing? Do you

Speaker 1 have any sort of story that is around like compassion being a choice or fierce compassion or masterful listening, no pressure. But if you have a story, anything you want to share before we wrap up and check in with the listener and hope they listen to this many times and share it with everyone that they know and love.

Speaker 2 Absolutely. So I did have to give this some thought. And I do have uh an experience that actually blends masterful listening and compassion. And um I think it's an experience for me, it happened in the workplace throughout my, you know, one time in my career, but it also happens to people at home or maybe part of a friend group or in some kind of community groups or community situations, or maybe where they're volunteering. Um, and it does. It uh for me, it's an example that highlights both masterful listening and then compassion as a choice. And, you know, the situation was um happened a while ago in

Speaker 2 my career where I was felt in the workplace that I was being uh targeted and unfairly treated. And um it had persisted over time, even though I'd, you know, sought ways to uh, you know, have things change and be done differently. And I actually made a choice to be compassionate with myself and reached out to a trusted colleague. And I want to back up, not just compassionate to myself, like this is a hard experience and I'm soothing myself, but be compassionate to myself, meaning I'm going to reach out to someone who I know is an expert and has probably had themselves or others in their profession

Speaker 2 have this kind of experience in the workplace. So it was a little bit more of that more mentoring, coaching part of myself coming uh, you know, out to get some, to get some real guidance on this. So I did seek this guidance from a trusted colleague. And I, you know, I had the experience. They listened attentively, they asked thoughtful and probing questions that to me demonstrated their deepen understanding of the intricacies and then really it was the nuances of these kinds of situations. And um, what was a pivotal moment for me when I reached out to this trusted colleague and was able to engage in this

Speaker 2 conversation is I had used words like targeted or singled out. And then they added on to that, oh, that sounds like retaliation. Oh, that sounds like you might be scapegoated. And hearing those words, even though I had said them to myself and maybe even, you know, to my partner or something like that, when I was, you know, kind of letting them know what had been going on at work. Um, hearing those kinds of words coming from somebody that I deeply respected and knew was an expert really profoundly impacted me. Not so much that it was a welling up of emotion, but it actually was more of

Speaker 2 a confirmation, like a validation that I wasn't overreacting, I wasn't imagining things, and I felt a much stronger solid foundation to stand on. So I also just want to add one other thing that came from my conversation with this expert, and you know, it wasn't a long conversation, right? We've talked about sometimes these masterful listening conversations aren't necessarily long conversations, but they were able to highlight because they had experience in these situations, not add on to the emotion of it, of the situation, but they were able to highlight patterns and dynamics that I actually hadn't I'd felt, but I hadn't noticed or wasn't really aware of

Speaker 2 because they had more expertise in the situation than I did. They brought those to my attention and it really helped me understand and and start to um feel the impact that this really difficult situation was having on me. So I, you know, I think that this is uh was an experience for me, again, of masterful listening. And then it was a choice because I chose to not only offer, you know, I had been kind to myself in the situation, but I really wanted to talk to an expert. So it was more of that kind of compassionate choice. And in the, you know, as a result, I

Speaker 2 was able to process my emotional experience more fully, the actual direct experience gave me a little bit of relief from turmoil. Um, and much, I wouldn't say I'm gonna say I would really love to say much more calm, more calm, but a lot more clarity about the situation and a readiness for me to take action on it that was skillful, that's consistent with being compassionate and probably the more of the fierce variety of compassion uh is what unfolded. So that was an experience that I had around masterful listening and choosing compassion. Again, you know, being targeted and singled out, it's something that sometimes happens at work,

Speaker 2 but it certainly happens at home, you know, in some situations and with friends and out in the community as well. Um, and it was a balm to really to receive masterful listening and compassion from somebody that was an expert that I trusted a lot and that had some experience in this, you know, in the field and in the area that I was um needing some guidance in. So that's the experience that I've had with masterful listening and uh receiving masterful listening and compassion.

Speaker 1 I love it. Thank you so much for sharing that. Um, I think what I really loved and what I wrote down was this validation. That word gets a weird rep. Like, oh, don't seek validation. But honestly, that is it's so important to be validated. Um, like I say the first thing when I teach coaching and listening, and and when someone shares something with you, just acknowledging and validating their experience authentically is so powerful. You really did that for me in this situation. I waited, I was a little worried to tell you what was going on. But when I did, and you were like, oh yeah, like

Speaker 1 actually, like that makes a lot of sense what you felt. And actually, this is what this I was like, oh, because I respected you and I thought you had knowledge and wisdom. And the fact that you validated me, I I did feel a little less quote, crazy, or you know, I was really questioning we do that, right? And so many people suffer in silence. So I love your story because people are often singled out in bad ways at work, at home, and often we're just dealing with that on our own, and there's shame around it. So the the main thing I heard was you you literally

Speaker 1 went to someone else and you listened, and they listened masterfully. How awesome. And it really validated, and it didn't, you also said it didn't make it all perfect and better, but like it it gave you some clarity. That's already huge. Because then with clarity, you can take, you know, action.

Speaker 2 Action, right? I could take effective action. I want to just say that that word, and I know we're we're getting towards the end of our time here. This always happens, you know, like ooh, this next really fascinating thing opens up towards the end of time or end of our time, whether it be a class or a you know, consulting gig or whatever. Um but validation, you know, what was important when you just shared that I offered you validation. Yes, it was for the emotional experiences and also helping to make some sense of them. Not that all experiences need to make sense, but there was something in

Speaker 2 addition to the emotional, like the emotional support. And that's also what I felt in my instance too. Um, of course, there was emotional support there. However, this person was seeing me more than my emotions, and also, you know, helping me make sense of in a way that felt accurate and uh true uh and authentic to me of what the ex, you know, what my experience had been. I think I always thought validation was just more about like, you know, somebody's gonna like make you feel emotionally good, but then they're probably still gonna enact the same bad behaviors. Yes. Or there's nothing, or there's not gonna be

Speaker 2 any behavior change. Yeah. And um, like, yeah, yeah, that happens in the field of compassion too, right? Oh yeah, empathy, empathy, empathy, empathy. And yeah, I'm not gonna really do anything different. Thanks.

Speaker 1 Yeah, no, that's actually super frustrating. Like honestly. I'm like, I'd rather you just not study all of it than if you're doing it, just and I know it, it it's it's work. Um, the validation that you gave me, yeah, you're right. It wasn't just emotional. It was that when someone attacked my character and told me that I was unstable, I was like, am I? And when I talk to you, you were like, actually, based on what I'm hearing. And you you're not someone who I think just says things to make people feel better. I'm like that too. Like you'll be honest. I was like, I need

Speaker 1 someone to just tell me, am I seeing myself clearly? Maybe this person has a point, right? I always I want to learn and grow. And it was super helpful to be like, no, no, like actually what you're experiencing and also what you're doing seems to make sense. I think it's this and that. So, yes, validation. Take that away, listener. Uh, is it's it's great to seek some validation. Not because you want someone to tell you what you want to hear, but because you want a genuine perspective of are how is this landing for you? I always say, listening, what is said is not what's heard. So

Speaker 1 is are you hearing what I'm saying? Is there something? My favorite question is, what did I miss? What am I missing here? You're probably missing something because you haven't asked the right questions. Maybe you're too emotional. Just something I really appreciate about you is you have a very humble way of being. Like anytime I say something like, Oh gosh, you're so wise and brilliant. You're like, yeah, well, I don't. And I'm like, Monica, come on. I love that. Like it's I really appreciate people who have a humble nature, but can also realize like they have so much to share and so much to give. And validation

Speaker 1 is great. Validate yourself with people who you respect, like you. It was nice to get your validation. Not because I needed it necessarily, but it was great to make me feel like, okay, cool. Like, yeah, so thank you again for all the things. I want to do a closing here. I want to check in with the listener, but is there anything else that you want to add that we didn't cover or say that you think would be a great addition? Because you'll we'll have more episodes and podcasts, I think, in the future. But for this one, yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you know, just to remember that I think um compassion is commonly taught and experienced as an emotion. And there is a growing body of us leaders and you know, teachers, facilitators, consultants that are really excited about being uh that compassion is a choice that we can make reliably, consistently, and um, out of compassion as a choice can give rise to this fierce kind of compassion where we're taking a stand assertively uh to uh move things forward in a way that would be meaningful and positive on behalf of many, many people. So I think that that would be one takeaway for the end of our time

Speaker 2 together here today.

Speaker 1 I love it. Thank you for saying that. And I promised the listener, or I mentioned earlier, after you suggested the lens of core values, that we might share the core values that appeared. So I wrote some down because I always take some notes. I don't know if you did. So first I want to say hello, listener. We're gonna officially come back to the part where we check in with you, see how that was, how did all that land? Uh, not sure what you got. I hope you got whatever you needed to get. Here are the core values that I was noticing through my masterful listening of

Speaker 1 Monica and through my masterful listening of myself and our interaction. I wrote down empowerment, vulnerability, authenticity, fun, honesty, reflection, and masterful listening, because that's what's happening. Uh Monica, what you got? Did you guys I didn't write any down? Okay, that's fine.

Speaker 2 But do you have any of Well, I would say all of those and of course compassion and fierce compassion. Right. There we go. Yeah, I will add those too. But no, my attention was fully on the conversation and I didn't have that meta perspective on this one. So I love it. We'll get to do this again. I'm just gonna be honest. Oh, humbleness there. That was one you offered at the end.

Speaker 1 That's actually so perfect because again, listeners, we all listen in unique ways. I, for me to really listen, I always jot notes down. It's weird. I can even like look at someone. I when I teach, sometimes when I coach, I will tell the person, hey, I have a pen and paper and I'm writing things down. Neurologically, we actually remember better that way. I read somewhere. And I'm like, oh yeah, for some of us who have ADHD also, it it actually helps me. So that's not how everybody does it, right? So just notice that if you're finding you're getting a lot of value from these episodes, you

Speaker 1 know, listen to them with a pen and paper. As long as it's not a distraction, that's the point. So those are some core values. Did you sense those? Did you hear those? Cool. If you did, awesome. A plus for you. If you didn't, a plus for you anyway. You're still here. It's been a minute and or an hour and 32 minutes. So um here's your homework because you know you get homework every time. I think based on our conversation, I want to assign this. I have two pieces of homework, and then Monica, if you have anything, I'd love to see what you'd add. I want you

Speaker 1 to find a place in your life where fierce compassion might help, just based on how you understand it now. It could be a situation with a human being, it could be an internal conflict you've been having. It doesn't matter what it is. Just like tune in to where is some moment in my life where this practice of taking some fierce, compassionate action as a choice might work. We never know until we try, right? Something Monica said a few times that I also want to reflect is that like everyday moments are really the place to practice, right? You don't need some massive heartbreak or thing. Yeah, you

Speaker 1 can practice with yourself when you're putting the dishes off again, as I have for a week, right? What would your compassion do? Right. So find a place, practice in some way, and thank someone in your life who you feel like has been a masterful listener for you, even if they don't know the term, and then share this podcast with them, seriously, because I want them as a guest, right? When Monica mentioned those people who were masterfully listening to her, when they might have not just they might have not even known it, but they were asking great questions, they were being of service, they were supporting her.

Speaker 1 Like, how cool is it? We don't tell the people enough who really help us through life. So find someone, thank them. So also thank you, Monica, because you're one of those people for me. And I'm gonna keep thanking you over and over again. I don't think you could overdo gratitude. I think that's like the one thing that you can't overdose on, but I don't know. Um, and then anything else for homework that you would like to add, or you feel like that's pretty good.

Speaker 2 I think that's awesome. I uh I think, and I was going to add something around masterful listening, and to you nailed it to invite people to um recognize and thank someone that has been a masterful listener for them, and then share those podcasts with them. I think is an excellent, it's an excellent idea. So really well done.

Speaker 1 Awesome. So, yes, share, subscribe, and I think the final thing I want to leave you with that fierce compassion is a choice, it's an action, and it's about strength and resilience and courage. Okay, so go out there and be courageous.

Speaker 4 Okay, bye bye.

Speaker 1 Bye bye. Okay, turn off. Okay, there we go.