Season 3 Premier: Tuning into Harmony: Embracing Masterful Listening through Music with Disco Singer Smoothie

Speaker 1 Season three of Masterful Listening is sponsored by Rad Hats for Rad Humans. Rat Hats for Rad Humans started itself last year when I painted a hat that had a little stain on it and uh it turned into quite a beauty. Every day I wore it, someone else wanted a hat and then wanted a hat and then wanted a hat. And every hat that I have since then painted is infused with so much love and a mantra. Many of them are lyrics, words that inspire, empower whoever wears them to be grounded and uplifted in life. And I donate money towards mental health. And I gotta say, this

Speaker 1 podcast is a big part of my mental health. So know that as you listen and if you support Rad Hats for Rad Humans, which is linked in the bio of every episode, you are supporting mental health initiatives, both for myself, but for others in the community. And if you write a review of this show, you'll get a little bonus discount on your own Rad Hat. And with that, let's get to the episode.

Speaker 1 Season three, episode one. What do you call? I know like the end is a finale. What's like the beginning word for the episode if it's first? Hey Smoothie, you do you know?

Speaker 2 Hey, hey. Well, it'd be the um the uh debut, the um yeah, I guess that'd be a good one. Premiere.

Speaker 1 Okay, see, wonderful. You are very good with words, and so uh for the listener, this is very exciting because this is the first premiere episode of this podcast where I have a guest premiering with me.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and it's a very special guest. I'm gonna introduce who this human is. And by the way, I actually want to know whether I should refer to you as we're talking as Smoothie, which is uh your musical uh I guess persona name, but you also have like an actual name that I've known you as, which is Justin. So are we calling you Smoothie today or Justin?

Speaker 2 Uh you know, I it's a question I often ask myself. Uh you uh you can call me anything. You can obviously call me uh Justin, but um I like I like going by smoothie also. But um, you know, I for you, Justin is just fine.

Speaker 1 Oh, Justin is just fine. God, you're so there's probably gonna be so many times through this conversation where I'm gonna be like, oh, that's so good. Little lyrical genius over here. So let me tell whoever's listening who Justin slash Smoothie is. So Smoothie is a disco singer and songwriter based in LA. He's currently working on his newest single and preparing his mind and body for the next phase of the grand smoothie plan, which I want to know what is that. And it's just unfolding, right? Um, but I do want to hear about that because actually I just realized I don't actually know where the name Smoothie

Speaker 1 came from. You might have told me, maybe I wasn't listening, but I do want to know that for the listener. But before that, I want to also tell whoever's listening. I am Smoothie's number one fan. I have been your number one fan since before Smoothie was born, since you were just Justin. And uh yeah, you've been making music for a very, very, very long time. You're a great friend of mine. I think it's 13 years now that we're into this relationship, which is amazing. And you're super stylish and you're funny. And if you're watching the video, I put on a hat just because Smoothie's wearing a

Speaker 1 hat because he always rocks a cool hat, but I might take it off because it's hard to wear a hat and have headphones on, which I'm discovering.

Speaker 2 So balance.

Speaker 1 So with that, Smoothie, welcome. Thank you for being here.

Speaker 2 Well, I uh I'm very happy that you have asked me to come on. I have always uh been a big fan of the podcast, big fan of the show, and uh Svet has often uh said that she is my number one fan, and she has been uh for a long time. I have been uh going at this music for a while, and uh definitely, you know, it doesn't feel like uh so long, but yeah, I guess you know that's that's how it goes. But anyway, uh I'm honored. I really appreciate what Svet is trying to do or what she's doing with this show, and I think

Speaker 2 it's a very important and people will come to realize how important it is, I think. So um way to be, you know, on the front lines of it, and uh I'm excited, you know. I feel like I'm gonna be uh talking too much, but uh, you know, you can always just ring me in and stop me there. But thank you, Sp. Yes, we go way back, and uh this is uh gonna be fun.

Speaker 1 No such thing as you talking too much, I think. I mean, sure, we've all had moments where we can ramble on a little bit more, but you're actually someone I really like talking to, which is it's not super rare, but it's more rare than I would like. You're someone who I've considered a really great listener through the years. And that's not so surprising, I think, because when I think of a musician and I think of music, the word listening or the concept is so connected, right? Like everyone listens to music. Now, the way that you listen to music is up to you, just like the way

Speaker 1 that you listen to podcasts is up to you. So actually, since we are in the world's first super rad listening school, I am gonna invite you all and Justin, you too, right? Because we're having a conversation and we're gonna be listening to each other in a different way, in a new way. We haven't actually ever recorded a podcast before, even though we have performed quite a few uh songs together and we've sang a lot together. So here's how I'm gonna invite you all to listen. Um have you ever had a song come on that you just like instantly love? Something about it just like captures you

Speaker 1 so, so much. Sometimes that happens and it's rare. And it's like, whoa, I almost feel like I've heard this before, but I haven't heard it before. It just feels so familiar. Ooh, ooh, I'm getting some static.

Speaker 3 Terminal.

Speaker 1 Can you hear that? No, it's cool, it's cool. Also, listeners, pay attention to that. Justin is sitting outside, it's beautiful. I kind of wish I was outside, but I'm I try to record.

Speaker 4 Oh

Speaker 4 Justin, you're fired.

Speaker 2 Go the cable is done. But no, I the thing was uh I just heard literally just heard someone start to uh like drill going on. And you know what? I allowed myself to get distracted. I'm sorry, I wasn't listening, and you just said I was okay, good listener. Well, hey, trying to to help the the podcast, and I ended up uh derailing the whole thing. Okay, I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 Well, isn't that just the perfect human moment to have? That's this is the perfect time for that to happen because we do get distracted, right? Sometimes you're listening to a song and you can get distracted. Sometimes you're talking to a person and you actually really want to be present, but you get distracted. I recorded another episode a few back with my podcast producer, and what was so funny was I was so concerned about her mic working well, and I didn't even notice that I kept leaning back, and the final cut was so bad because she sounded great and I did not. And I just thought, see,

Speaker 1 I spent all this time half focused on the sound, and I completely missed that I was doing something to mess it up. So anyway, that's a it's a it's a it's a great lesson. So for the listener, I want you to listen to this as if you've just put on this song that you've never heard, but you like it, and you actually wanna hear every aspect of it. Often it's the, you know, the the little spaces within between the notes. Often it's the harmony, sometimes it's the lyrics. There's so much about music that is there to love and appreciate, and no one can tell you what

Speaker 1 music to love, how to listen to it. Sometimes you want to have a song on in the background, but sometimes you want to be like super in it. So for this podcast, for this episode, and I say this every time because I mean it, I invite you to listen fully. This is not something to have on in the background. This is something to make sure you're listening to at a time where you can fully focus and listen on it or listen to it. And if you do find yourself distracted, the cool thing is you can always rewind it and play it again and play it again

Speaker 1 and play it again. I want you to end this experience of listening and be like, damn, that was really cool. Maybe I've heard some things that sound familiar, like a new song that sounds familiar, but you've never actually been in this moment before and you've never heard us speaking because it's literally never happened before. So kind of cool. So be fully present, listen to our words, pay attention to if you're watching the video, look at the environment that we're in. Uh, pay attention to the energy between us, how we speak to each other as well. We might have a different tone. Uh it's all the world

Speaker 1 is always communicating, we're always in it, but are we really present to the gifts, you know, that life and that songs and that people are always trying to give to us? I don't think so. That's why I literally created this podcast, this school. So, yeah. Anything else, uh, Jay, that you want to add to how you would invite people to listen today?

Speaker 2 Well, I do like that you start the uh show, the the episodes like that, because sometimes I definitely am not in a space to really uh listen and receive fully. And I think, you know, from like um like our uh you know marketing brains that we've just like grown up having uh or developing, you think like, oh well, you shouldn't should never tell somebody to you know not to listen. You know what I'm saying? It's like you should be, you know, you expect people to be more like on the on the corners saying, hey, step right up, got a new podcast episode here, like get ready

Speaker 2 to listen no matter what you're doing. So I think that it is important to if you're really trying to glean something, especially from uh a show like this and what you're trying to do, I think it is important to just like to really just know yourself and be like, hey, you know, maybe now's the time. Maybe I do just want to listen to some music right now and something I can just kind of like, you know, feed into uh the environments that I've already have rather than be in a place to absorb it. So I would just say listen to Svet. It's always a good uh

Speaker 2 always a good rule. And um yeah, just uh come come as you are, and when you're ready, you'll you'll you'll just gain more from it. I think that's and I've I've done it myself. I've heard started a podcast and been like, you know what, I'm really not ready to listen right now, and then I'll come back and listen later and I'll feel that much more into it and uh ready for it. So I think it's uh solid advice. And one of my neighbors started playing piano, which is really nice too.

Speaker 1 Perfect. I don't hear it in the background, but a little piano in the background is always nice. Uh, thank you for saying, or for reminding people to listen to me. I remind people to listen to you. And really, I would so much rather someone not be talking to me than half-assing it. I would so much rather you turn off this episode and go listen to Smoothie on Spotify or something else, right? Because that presence is the whole point of this one. I'd rather have fewer downloads and listens that were like, you know, in it, uh, than, you know, it's kind of like uh people who try

Speaker 1 to grow their social media profiles and just get all these followers, but like the people are completely unengaged.

Speaker 2 It's like right, right, no, no engagement.

Speaker 1 Engage with us, engage with us. Okay, so stay engaged. Um, and let's just jump in. So actually, Justin and I have been talking, and by the way, I'm gonna call you Justin, I'm gonna call you Jay. I might say smoothie. Just know I am always talking about this wonderful guest who's sitting with me. Well, not with me, he's in LA. I'm in Saucelito. Um, but you were actually here last week, which was super cool. Uh how'd you like it? Do you have a nice time visiting?

Speaker 2 I had a great time. Uh, it was something where I knew I knew I needed uh just my good friend Svet to change things up and uh recharge a little bit. Um and I'd never been to your place, I'd never been to Sausalito at all. I've always heard of it and always just kind of associated it with um, you know, the uh like just north of San Francisco. Um but actually being there and visiting it in this absolutely beautiful place, and uh it was just like a really nice uh visit. It was, you know, short and sweet, but um it was great. I've been riding the

Speaker 2 the wave ever since, and I would uh suggest to everyone to respectfully visit Saussolito, and um you know if you ever get a chance to do so, it's uh it's a good time.

Speaker 1 I'm glad I'm glad you didn't just invite people to come and hang out with me in Saul Solito. Although I always love uh having companions, but you were probably the first person who's stayed with me where it went really well in the past six months. So I I just want to acknowledge that. It happens, yeah. Yeah, you're you're an easy person for me to be around uh for a lot of reasons. But it honestly has a lot to do with listening, it also has a lot to do with music. Like you and I both love music. I remember something that you said to me, this was

Speaker 1 at the very beginning of when we met, I think right like 13 years ago, and I will tell that that we were having one of our like deep conversations about life and what is happening in life and how confusing life can be sometimes. And you said something like, Music is the only thing in the universe that makes sense, and I was like, Oh, yeah. I don't know, it just hit me super hard. Do you remember saying that?

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's a good line. Uh no, I I do remember because I had been, and especially at that time when I was deciding to really pursue uh the craft of songwriting and you know music making. Um and I really on a you know philosophical level was trying to you know dive into what would be like a no actual like noble thing to pursue, you know, like what's a you know something it's like I mean well now now we know all like the old explorers were just like awful people, but something like that, where it's like you know, you know, maybe it's uh being uh a guy,

Speaker 2 but I didn't just think being a person, especially in America, you know, you feel this need to go out and conquer and to do great things, and so but I wanted to, I was you know, interested in a lot of things and I wanted to know if I and I knew that I had to fully dedicate myself, so I wanted to like explore and learn uh as much as I could because um the feelings that I got when listening to music were something that I felt was more um it was just always a mystery to me. And the more that I actually learned about it, especially

Speaker 2 you know, then, um, and how much it's you know, so the rhythms and everything are so intrinsic to who we are as a species, um the more that I began to realize and sort of like come to terms with the fact that the literal physical vibrations that we're making, you know, just from speaking or talking or making music is something that I feel like will actually echo into the universe and and actually does echo into you know the universe and the galaxy around us, um just like the noise of this drill that's going on. So I don't know, so it's great timing. Um but it's true,

Speaker 2 it's just like so you know, maybe it was just a way it was a way for me to sort of like rationalize it to myself, but it um the more that I learned about it, the more I felt like uh it was not only a fun thing to pursue, but also something that was primal and integral uh to us as a species. So I felt you know better about dedicating myself to that, and also in a yeah, metaphysical sense or in a sense of like the actual what music, what we're actually hearing, um, and the way that translates to our brains and affects us. And the

Speaker 2 way the best example I always think of is just like a disco song, you know, uh from Sheik or something that is able to just create this world um that you can imagine and feel and and taste uh just from like a second, you know, two seconds of music, and you're suddenly in this whole new world. And so I wanted to study that power and to try to harness that power for my own selfish personal uh gain, but um, I've definitely just learned along the way that there is um a lot more than to it than just like and sometimes you know, nothing at all, but

Speaker 2 it's just more, you know, the way it affects us, I felt like was deeper than and I wanted to explore that. And that's kind of what that quote was about, and uh, you know, I was definitely feeling philosophical when I said it, but I appreciate that you're always along, you're always ready to go along for the ride as well, and and appreciate the the truth behind um you know, even sort of uh inane things like that. But there is like sometimes a deeper.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I think the fact that I'm truly listening and so aware is beautiful and it's dangerous because it could definitely lead you down all kinds of rabbit holes. Like, what does that mean? And what does that mean? But still, that's I've always been that way. Um, I've always been super curious, and what's funny?

Speaker 2 Uh afraid of missing out. I've always been afraid of missing out. I want to be, I want to hear what you're saying because what if it actually is a really good thing, you know? Like, I feel like that's always pushed me to be open to listening to even like, you know, crazy people on the bus, like who just start talking to me for some reason, and I'm just like, well, I've been that crazy person on the bus, though, I want to say.

Speaker 1 So it's like you just I I've I've been on the yeah. Well, you you know, I had this well, and I've veering off, I'm taking a little detour. There's some things I want to come back to, but I have noticed that, and this is with music too. I when someone like I love when people send me songs. I think that's like my love language is music. Like, if you want to make me happy, just send me a random song. And it's very rare that I like play it, and I'm like, oh, because usually within the first probably five seconds of a song, I decide whether I

Speaker 1 want to keep going. And here's the problem with that is that, well, first Of all sometimes you just gotta give it some more time, right? You gotta let it build. Sometimes the beginning is nothing like the middle, the chorus, and all of it. And it's like that with people. Like, I'll usually if I meet someone and I'm not instantly drawn to them, I've been one to be like, nope, I don't even want to interact. But I've especially after this show launched, I've noticed that I want to give people more of my listening because sometimes people are really nervous when they meet me or anyone. Sometimes they're

Speaker 1 in a weird mood, right? Whatever. And I have this one lady in my neighborhood. We walk, we ran into her, Vicky, the really sweet neighbor. I just saw her today. And like when I first met her, I she was usually, she was just not someone that I would have usually, I think, been drawn to. She was a bit older than me. I could tell she had a heavier accent. It was a little hard for me to understand her, but I was like, wait, just talk to this person. Like she might have something incredible to give you, to share with you, to inspire you. And literally, she's

Speaker 1 like my favorite person. She loves rad. She's always telling me how I'm so beautiful and the best dog mom. She's giving me all these tools and tips, and I'm so glad that I pushed through that habit I had of, oh, in the first five seconds, I'm not really sure. I'm just gonna skip it. You know what I mean? So that's totally masterful listening. Like, what are we saying no to before we even have a chance to like really feel it, know it, understand it. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 Yeah, and it's the same uh with music where someone can send you a song and it's like uh, you know, you're just not in the mood maybe to listen to the particular genre that it is, and you know, like you don't feel like and honestly, you're right, it's like people send you a lot of stuff or a lot of songs, and like you know, eight times out of ten, it's just kind of like forgettable and just not really, you know, inspiring, or maybe you just don't dig it, and then maybe you know, one or two times it'll be like actually something that you would want to

Speaker 2 uh know and listen to and be pleasantly surprised with. But uh the odds, you know, I guess but you know, the truth is that there are times too when I just you know will have recognized that I wasn't you know in the mood to listen to this particular thing, but I'll come back later and it's something that's grown on me, or something I'll it'll get stuck in my head later. Um and yeah, so I feel like that's it's also similar, you know, with people, and and I also think that also we sometimes let our um we feel like we have to define ourselves, and so that

Speaker 2 sometimes will limit our experiences as well, both in music, you know. Well, I only listen to this type of music or I don't like this. I remember in high school it was always like the one that we said, like, I like everything except rap and country, like that was the way to like, you know, to shield yourself from, you know, don't worry, I only like only like good stuff, but it's so funny to me that that was uh that that was a thing that was like felt um when the truth is is that you know we well, one, like the whole genres of songs have changed

Speaker 2 so much, you know, over over the years and everything, but um you know the truth is that when you limit yourself uh in the same way where it's like, oh well, and like you said, or I only five seconds.

Speaker 1 All right, I didn't yeah.

Speaker 2 Five seconds. No, you're totally right. I was I was in my head, I was like, it probably should be five seconds, but or more closer to five seconds, but you know, and that can be something where 90% of the time, you know, that is a that will serve you in a sense of like you just kind of get the vibe and you trust your gut, and you know, it's like probably not great. But you can't treat these things as like a hard and fast rule because then you know you are limiting yourself and you um you know, and you're just yeah, it's like these things we

Speaker 2 use to like define ourselves and claim they're you know that they're our who we are and our characteristics. It's like yeah, that's it's good to know yourself and to be honest like that, but it's also good to to know where it's maybe limiting you and where it's like just sort of you know something you say versus what's actually the truth as well.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and I want to admit, I was a thousand percent someone who said, Oh, I like everything, but not country. Uh I love what remember I'm gonna get to this moment of we were sitting here on my swing bed enjoying the view, and we were like, let's listen to a bunch of songs from like when we were in high school that we loved that are like the best worst songs. And every song I was putting on, you're like, you know, this is a country song as well. This is a and I was like, what? And I was like, oh yeah. Wow, at the time, that is

Speaker 1 not what I thought of those songs as. I kind of thought they were like alternative rock kind of vibes, and I was like, oh, are they country? Right.

Speaker 2 They they are, and when I when I say that, it's like I've just sort of come to realize, you know, everyone knows that it's or everyone could know that it's like, okay, well, uh rock and roll comes from you know, country music and also rhythm and blues, or you can sort of tell where like, are you like jazz led, you know, leads to rock and roll kind of a thing, uh, the progression of music, but I never really understood how even modern songs, while they will can have like yeah, the alternative or like hard rock edge to them, um, how a lot of songs really kind

Speaker 2 of uh fall into these, you know, sort of older categories. And there's just a lot of songs where I can just hear the person singing it with kind of a little bit of a twang, and suddenly it's like, you know, just a classic, it just sounds like a classic uh country song. So as much as like the lines have also become more and more blurred at the more I've learned about it and realized that you know, these rules that we uh, you know, again, these barriers that we put up to like define things also can kind of like limit uh what they are or our understanding

Speaker 2 of them. But um yeah, I just always thought that was well.

Speaker 1 That's actually a massive listening lesson that I want to bring up for the audience right now, is and I teach this in my courses. You know, I'm an executive coach as well, so I teach all kinds of uh courses, and some of them are around like communication, feedback, and building trust. And one of the things I say is that we need to be really careful with generalizations and blanket statements. Like, I don't like this type of music, I don't like this type of person. Because, first of all, no two people are exactly the same, even if they have similar views on something that you might not

Speaker 1 agree with, which let's say, I mean, we live in a world right now, it's very polarizing. Uh, we and we're allowed, by the way, just like we are allowed to have different musical tastes, we are allowed to have different political ideas, we're allowed to have different fashion ideas, right? And we're very quick to see someone, to hear someone, to judge someone, to put them in a box of I don't like country music. Or for I now I think the only music I don't really love is like um heavy metal, uh, or like what's it called? The like oomps, mmps, mmmps, the like super techno-y, just like

Speaker 1 I I have a hard time. My my system is overloaded. But uh, I was going to a rage room a few months ago because I wanted to try. For those who don't know what it is, a rage room is like uh they've they've become quite popular. You like go into a space and they give you like a bat and all this shit, and you can just like destroy a bunch of things. Kind of a healthy way to get anger out. And I remember I was on my way there and I wanted to make like an angry playlist. So I was like searching through like all I

Speaker 1 went to like the Matrix soundtrack and I I pulled up this um, there's a band, Orgy, that I used to love. I think the Blue Monday they remade, but there were some other songs, and I was like vibing to it. I was like, oh yeah, like if I'm angry and I'm trying to like get some energy out, maybe I am gonna listen to that. So that is something I want us to all think about. Like, how often are we like, no, this is not for me? I'd never wear that. I'd never date a person like that. I'd never ever like it, it's it's so dangerous because

Speaker 1 it just cuts you off from potentially falling in love with a new artist, a person, an idea. I mean, I have legit changed my mind on things that I said, no way. There's no way I could see that differently. And now I'm like, oh, I was so wrong. It's kind of cool, right? It's like falling in love with a song that you maybe didn't even like or refalling in love with a song that you used to love. And, you know, I'm like looking at this list that we made, and I'm like, man, we still, by the way, we are gonna record those songs together. So that's

Speaker 1 a side note. But point is keep an open mind when it comes to people, when it comes to music, when it comes to also yourself changing, you could legit wake up and suddenly be like, I'm just gonna go with this genre or this. I do it with fashion as well. I'm kind of like, if you see me on four different days, you could legitimately think there is a different human being in front of you because of how I'm choosing to present myself, just because that's what feels authentic. And I really like uh inviting people to do that, like to shift your creative endeavors too. Like your

Speaker 1 music when we met, and actually, let's talk for a sec about how we met because it's a great story. I think it's also tied to listening. Your music was super different back then. You you had this, you sang these like love ballads, and you had this like amazing falsetto. And so how uh Jay and I met was I studied abroad in Rome when I was 20, which was 18 years ago, which is so weird. And I made some friends in Rome. Shout out to uh Alex and Alana. And Justin was also in Rome, but like at a different time than me. So somehow we were there,

Speaker 1 but we didn't quite meet there. But I was a photographer at the time. That was like my main art, and so was he. So I'd heard his name. I'd heard, oh my God, we have this new friend, we're having all these adventures. He's an amazing photographer, and he'd heard about me. So for like a few years, we'd heard about each other. And everything I heard about him, I was like, oh my God, I want to meet this guy. Like he sounds so cool. That they were like, you guys are already friends, but you haven't met yet. It was kind of like that story. And then I

Speaker 1 remember uh I was told, yeah, Jay's actually coming to SF with his band. And I was like, amazing, we get to meet. And I literally remember meeting you, and we were at this venue at the time. The box SF shout out. Uh Alex, our friend, was like the event space manager. And I oh, was it Thanksgiving? Yeah, that makes sense. I don't even honestly remember. All I remember is you sitting and singing with your guitar, and I was there was this massive old wooden table. And I was, I don't know why, but I was lying on the floor under the table listening to you singing. I

Speaker 1 think I was just so overwhelmed by the beeping in the background right now. No, it's no way I could hear it. Here's the thing uh for any of you who are more familiar with me through the years, I've made, you know, hundreds of videos online. And often I would just film them on the street, and there'd be like a massive noise driving by, a bus coming by, and I always kind of acknowledged it and said, This is life. Life is loud, life doesn't always sound exactly the way you want, and that's okay. I think the key is acknowledge it, try to focus, and if you need

Speaker 1 to pause and start again. That's okay. So, anyway, we've acknowledged that. But the point is, I remember laying under that table. I remember being like kind of intoxicated with the songs, and I don't remember what song it was, but I wish I did, and that you could sing it for a second so I could like lay on the floor and feel that again. But I was just very moved. I was like, wow, this dude is super talented. Um, I think you had your camera with you. And I think we just spent a few days like getting to know each other, singing, having adventures, connecting. I always

Speaker 1 think I feel like you and I just listened a lot to like the Beatles. Whenever I think of you, I think of the Beatles. You introduced me to so many songs that I'd never heard. I think a lot of I was like one of these, like I was a Beatles fan, but I knew like the really famous songs. But like just like starting over, like that song I always think about, and like you've given me such a gift of music. Like one of my favorite things in this world is to drive with someone and sing songs. Like, and we've done that a lot. So, anyway, that's

Speaker 1 how we met. And then that was a very long time ago through the years. Uh Jay's lives in LA, I live in SF. So you'd come up, you actually moved to SF for a little bit of time, then you came back. But we just became really good friends and we would keep in touch. And I feel like what you really did for me when I was in a really dark place really stands out because you just showed up, like physically, you were in town one day when I was really struggling in like a depression. You joined me, you literally held my hand, you took me to

Speaker 1 a support group, you sat with me the whole time. You were so compassionate. You never tried to fix me. You also had your own journey with depression, with mental health. I think it's that's just a whole other topic of like artists dealing with all the feelings and emotions that we process. And that was incredible. Like you really, really helped me. And I think I've thanked you before, but I can just thank you live again. Like that was one of the kindest, most loving, best ways that I've been supported uh and for many years. So thank you for that.

Speaker 2 Uh of course. I um all I can say is that I know that uh you, I think that you would have done the same. I know that you would have tried to help. And I just knew that um I don't know, I guess it was just something where I uh, like you said, I've I've definitely had my own struggles, and I think it's something that we have sort of connected on as well. Um and I just knew uh that there is no, you know, fixing it. And for some reason in that moment, I just kind of knew that um, you know, uh you were clearly going

Speaker 2 through something, and I just wanted to help. And I think I'm better in like emergencies and like uh really rough situations. I I feel like I that uh I handle that better than than maybe more mundane problems that come up. Um so you know, to me, like yeah, I I don't know. I I think it's it was like um I do look back and and think of it, I don't think of it as something that like I did anything in particular. It was more just like um I saw how how delicate you know things can be. But I also knew that that you that you were

Speaker 2 strong and that you would bounce back and it was like, you know, um I don't want to say not not like uh a temporary thing or definitely not some sort of like easy thing, but I just knew that um you know it was a moment that you would uh pull through and that you know sometimes we all uh deserve that sort of time to kind of like uh just you know get her to pull through. And you know, just sometimes someone holding your hand in a park is uh is you know all they all you can take and all you know all you really need at

Speaker 2 the time. But um yeah, it wasn't uh it wasn't difficult for me to uh to try to uh to be there for you. And um yeah, and uh we we both have our own journeys to continue, and um, you know, hopefully we can be there for each other in some capacity.

Speaker 1 Uh a hundred percent. I mean, honestly, I say this a lot, and I think now is a good time to repeat it for those who are listening. In my experience, the best thing you can do for someone who's really struggling is listen and do not try to make them feel better. Uh hold their hand, just be like, it's almost like uh a few people have said this. Um no one in particular is coming to me right now, but like if you see someone in the shit, instead of yanking them out, just sit in it with them for a minute. Just like remind them that, like, and

Speaker 1 you said that too. You're like, I've been there. I felt like I didn't feel judged. I also you kind of normalized it, right? Like when we feel like our entire world is falling apart, it's so easy to think that first we're the only one there, our pain is worse than everyone else's, no one gets me, and it's never gonna end. And those are all lies. But just acknowledging to someone, like, yeah, man, I I know this really freaking sucks. And I and I've been there and like I'm here. I literally feel like we must have spent hours on the phone. Sometimes we weren't even talking. I

Speaker 1 feel like you were just with me for a bit. That was super helpful. So I think we all have a tendency to want to try to make people feel better, and that's not bad, right? But like some of my favorite songs are like the metaphor is they're like a person with me just holding my hand, and I'm sad, and I have playlists of like the sad parts of my life, and then I can feel the music changing. Like literally every playlist I have, and I have quite a few, is either a depression list or a love list. So I started them either when I was super

Speaker 1 depressed or met some guy and was falling in love, and I can tell in the depression ones where I started feeling better by the lyrics, by the tone, and I can tell on the love lists where shit started going bad with the dude. And suddenly, like that is so interesting, too. That like the soundtracks change and that's cool. Imagine if you only listen to one type of song. It's like, have you ever loved a song and you're like playing it a thousand times, then one day you're like, I cannot fucking hear the song anymore. I'm done. It's like that with our moods and our emotions, right?

Speaker 1 So, um, anyway, I hope that inspires those listening to remember that while it's very kind to love your friends and want to lift them up, and sometimes we do need to get yanked out, that sometimes just sitting there in the sadness is the kindest and most helpful thing.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I would say not that like I'm in any sort of position or place to give advice, but coming from someone who for a long time and still does feel that need to be the fixer and help people and wants to, you know, say, you know, even though I know it's not doesn't really work that way, I still can have that desire. Um you know, it took a while for me to realize that I it was very self-serving. I wasn't really trying to help all the time or completely, you know. I wanted to be known as someone who could help, you know, and um as I

Speaker 2 kind of like had my own experiences and sort of realized what uh is actually effective and what's actually important was actually true. Um then because I uh did want to help, I realized that I needed to just be truthful and um be. Because Fed's also very smart, and I think when you're smart and you're going through something, it's easy to kind of like uh spout the you know inspirational poster bullshit that you know people kind of fall back on, uh either just because they don't know or because you know they're just uncomfortable themselves. Um so it is important to take a look at yourself, and I

Speaker 2 guess this you know could kind of go into something we're talking about with being in a space to to listen to somebody. Um it's important to know you know your own bullshit and like what you're bringing to the table because plenty people, everyone wants to think that they can help, everyone wants to, you know, like I said, kind of be known as a as a fixer or helper. But um, if you truly want to help somebody in any rec in any capacity, you know, you have to be able to make sure that you can you know wade into those waters and not uh get you know

Speaker 2 lost or kind of uh you know in your own in your own kind of bring your own bullshit to it. So that would be my only advice as far as that goes, just something that took me a while to realize and really accept. And um, yeah. Sometimes, like Svet said, sometimes you do, you know, people do need a little bit of encouragement. Um but the most important thing is to honestly is to listen until you actually understand what's happening, you know, and it's so easy to kind of like assume also finish yeah, just try to finish people. I do it all all the time. I finish

Speaker 2 try to finish people's sentences in my head and know what they're going through, and um you can't really assume, you have to really just sort of like come at it with a blank slate, and uh that's also difficult to do. But it's like we were talking about with musing with people, you know, you have to try to work on that to keep yourself open. Um, to where, you know, even if you have a relationship with a friend and it's always choking around and never that serious, you know, if they do just you know suddenly get serious, uh it might feel like it's easier for you to

Speaker 2 kind of just laugh it off, but um, you should really be listening to those uh you know subtle changes in what our friends talk about, um or when it stays the same because things don't stay the same, you know, where it's in a constant state of change. So just uh yeah, be try to listen for that as well, you know, because uh I think when I was really going through it the most is when I was um or when I do, I I try to keep up appearances and you know tell everyone that it's like it's all good, and that's uh you know that's and with

Speaker 2 someone like you, I can always feel because I'm listening that if you say you're all good, but I can hear your tone, I'm like, you're not all good.

Speaker 1 I'm not gonna tell you, but I you know, you you if you're really listening, you can probably sense how often people are like, I'm fine. But the truth is some people really pretend very, very, very, very, very well. There's a lot of examples of musicians where people say the day that they took their life, they seemed happy, they were fine. So assumptions are so dangerous. And again, very tied to what we're talking to, because I've assumed, first of all, that I knew lyrics to songs that I'd been singing for years. Second, that I knew what they meant, that I knew what they were about. Just like

Speaker 1 I've assumed that when I'm listening to someone, I know what they're saying, I get what it means, I know what's going on. And I have been so wrong because I made it about me. I wanted it to mean that. I there's a song. Um well, but you don't even know the question. That's the thing. Um, there's a song called Stars. Um, Grace, Grace and the Grace Porter and the Nocturnals. I always mispronounce that band, but it's like uh, you know that I don't know if anyone knows that song. I love that song. I'll link it. I thought it was an optimistic song. I was listening to

Speaker 1 it, thinking when you when she sees the stars, she thinks of this love. And she was saying the opposite. She was saying, like, I can't see the stars, not I can. And I was like, oh, that's a completely different song. And it doesn't mean I can't decide what it means for me, but how often are you listening and making it about you with a person? Because with the song, that's completely appropriate. I feel like when an artist makes a song, they make it for them, but it's like you do with it what you want. But in a conversation, if you're constantly listening at that super first

Speaker 1 level where you're making it about you, you're making it assumption. You and I had a few moments when we were going deep and having conversations where it was like, oh, did you just hear what I said in the way you heard it, in the way I said it? It happens all the time. We can be sensitive. We could have had a situation with someone. That's why songs trigger such emotions. For me, a song is teleportation. I hear a song and I'm instantly brought back to a person, a moment, a feeling. That's why some songs are really hard to listen to at times where I do not

Speaker 1 listen to them, just like some people might be very hard to be around. I always say, if you've just broken up with someone, do not go see them all the time. Like that is a bad idea because you will get sucked back in. And yet we do that, right? So there's so much synergy, I think, between the our relationship to music and how we take in any content and the way we live our lives. So the thing I want to ask about, because I feel like we could literally talk about a million things, is uh timing. Uh, timing and also just being really discerning about like

Speaker 1 what you listen to when and who you talk to and when. Um, the moment that made me just notice this was the other day, I think a few days ago after you left, I was driving and I was in a really bad mood. I'm noticing at night I've been getting really sad. And I got in my car and I always have music on. So and I put on a playlist, and literally I have like major ADHD, especially with music, where I will like skip songs like real quick. And I literally drove for probably 10 minutes. And every song that came on, I was like, nope, nope,

Speaker 1 skip, skip, skip. And I didn't even know what I was looking for. I just knew it wasn't those songs, and they were songs I loved. I made these playlists. And finally, after skipping probably 50 songs, I was like, oh yeah, this one. And it resonated for like 30 seconds, and then I skipped it again. And I just thought, wow, that is so interesting. Because first of all, I doubt that any of those songs that I skipped were offended. Really? Like, I don't think they were like, oh my God, why is she not listening to me right now? But I thought she loved me. But how often

Speaker 1 have you been in a conversation with someone where let's say they're distracted, they don't really want to listen to you. And you're like, I often get hurt. I think they don't care, they don't love me, they skipped me, or someone didn't invite you somewhere. And you're like, why wasn't I invited? Why am I, why am I not the tune that is the the the tune of their life right now? And it's like uh that's so interesting to me because I wish people weren't offended by that. I actually wish people could appreciate, and I think most in my world now do, because I've literally been like, is

Speaker 1 it a good time? Can you listen? If not, thank you. Be honest with me. And also, I've been telling people now is not a good time. I am fucking distracted. I am running behind. Can we talk later? And I really feel like that is a skill, it is a tool. Like you don't feel bad for skipping the songs, but can you stop feeling bad for just like not choosing to listen at a certain time, but being honest about that? What do you what do you think? How does that kind of land for you?

Speaker 2 Yeah, no, when you say that it it does really um, especially like as a musician. No, I've always felt that I should be listening to more music, and it's not really something that um I don't know. It's definitely something where it's like I have to be in the right mood to really appreciate um whatever, or or it's more just like really what it is is that I usually have a few songs that are like in my head that keep repeating, and I'll just listen to those two or three songs for like two or three weeks, and then I'll get tired of it and like a new

Speaker 2 song will will sort of like come up. But it's something where like I just yeah, have learned and accepted that sometimes I just don't sometimes I need the silence. Like when I go for a walk or something, I used to try to like listen to music, and sometimes I still will. But if what I've noticed is especially for writing songs or you know, for coming up with things, is that I you know just need the kind of nature and you know, this I shouldn't say silence because it's not sound on the streets of LA, but it's um definitely like you know, just the the natural rhythms

Speaker 2 of the world uh you know affecting me more than just being kind of uh just listening to something. But um, I definitely feel like if it's the wrong song uh and I'm driving, especially with friends, and it feels like it's the wrong song, which is not always the case, but sometimes you feel like everyone hits you and thinks you're awful because you picked this great song that you love, but now you hate it and you're like, what I was thinking. Uh no, but I think there are a lot of parallels between that and how I, you know, listen to people, or how I sort of yeah,

Speaker 2 like you know, sometimes I'll feel like I should listen to more music, or sometimes I feel like I should be, you know, reaching out and just calling friends or like talking to them and being ready to hear them. But the truth is that it is about timing, it's not always the right time for your song, it's not always um, you know, the right time for your for your friends to hear you uh and um be there for you in the way that you feel like you need or the way that you you know hoped, expected them to be. And also, you know, sometimes your friends aren't

Speaker 2 ready to share as well, even if you're just so fucking ready to get into it and you know, and help them and solve other problems. Uh that, you know, it is difficult a lot of times to uh for people to um, you know, even friends, even old friends, you know, we get into these routines and it's tough to kind of like break out of them and uh you know talk about something, you know, maybe serious or something that that you don't usually, you know, deeper subjects than you usually would. And I don't know, it's difficult to to gauge that because obviously no one should feel pressured

Speaker 2 to, you know, reveal anything or share anything. Um but I think it's more about appreciating the timing of the universe and the world, recognizing when you are when things do align and you know appreciating them and not just like being so you know dismissive or you know getting so quick to like um you know start feeling self-conscious or something. I think that it is important to kind of like uh push those boundaries. And there's also times where you know I feel like I'm in a crappy mood and I'll like you know be listening to a song and by the end of it I'm you know feeling

Speaker 2 better or like uh giving myself permission to sort of like let go of this bad feeling that I've been hanging on to, or you know, this grumpy mood that I've been uh felt like I had to uh to inhabit. So um I think that really there are a lot of you know things that tie it together, but um, it's also like it's hard work. It's uh I'm still working on it.

Speaker 1 It's tricky to know. I say that a lot as a coach. Like, when do you push past resistance and when do you back off? And like for me, and this is a big shift, and I really like this shift that I've made. Is gosh, probably up until a few years ago, if I felt uncomfortable, I would start calling people. Like I just felt like I needed to process and share. And I I think I had enough moments where literally I was like, I usually call people when I drive, sometimes not, but I would just start calling someone, they not picking up, not picking up, not picking

Speaker 1 up. And like 10 people in a row would not pick up. And I would just be like, okay, hold on, take a breath. This is a sign. Like, why are you calling them right now? Because I wanted someone to save me. I wanted someone to listen to me, to fix me. And then I realized, but can I do this for me? It's not to say, don't call your friends, it's not to say, don't ask for help, but I felt like I couldn't just be with me. And that was not a feeling that I liked. I wanted to be able to first be with me and then

Speaker 1 sure, call a friend. But I realized that honestly, a lot of times that I was calling people, it didn't even matter who it was. I just didn't want to be alone. I also made plans all the time, just so I had plans. And now those who know me know I barely go anywhere. I've gone too far in a way, I think, in the opposite direction. Because frankly, most of the time when I was out, I wasn't enjoying it. I felt uncomfortable, people weren't listening. If it almost felt lonelier to be out with others that I didn't really connect with uh than to just be home and

Speaker 1 sit with myself and sit with my thoughts, which is why music has become kind of like one of my best friends because it does keep me company. But even that, I now also on my walks, I'm like, why are you always having noise around? Can you just walk and listen to the trees and be with Rad? Even to is that a fucking bus? What is that noise in the background?

Speaker 2 Oh yeah, I I feel like uh everyone said uh black party on on the on the on the street. No, it it's literally it sounds a garbage truck. It's been going on. For an hour. I love it.

Speaker 1 But anyway, even that, like just it's it's actually like the walking meditation is the idea that like you just feet your feel your feet on the ground, you listen to the noises around you. It's actually very grounding um to also be okay with the discomfort of not loving everything you hear. So I think for me to answer my own question, what's the balance? I think you gotta do a little of both. You you you want to lean in to sharing some of the hard stuff because what is a good friend if not someone who can just listen and you can be real with and you can

Speaker 1 say the the dirty stuff to, you know, the stuff that we're ashamed about, and maybe we don't want to admit it could be really nice to know that, like, no matter what I say, I think I said that to you at some point. Like, I am not judging you, I am no one to judge you. There is nothing that you are gonna tell me, literally. I cannot imagine what you would have to say for me to be like, no, fuck that. Like, I mean, unless you were like being really mean to yourself in some way. And then I'd be like, hey, don't be mean to my

Speaker 1 friend, right? But seriously, and I do say that, but I just I think that being in silence is what allows us to hear the magnificence of the symphony, like literally, because it it really is the silence that gives you more appreciation for uh the the music, and it's knowing what you like and what you don't like. Skip all those fucking songs. I say stop hanging out with anyone that doesn't really bring you something that at that time of your life you need. And that might mean a friend. That might mean you take some time off and you pause uh time with someone like you would pause

Speaker 1 a musician for some reason and try not to be offended. Uh, I would say always be uh like um acknowledge it. I think when people just disappear, uh that could be uh challenging. I've had people do that to me. You've disappeared a bit in times too. Like I feel like you've gone inward and I'm like, where'd he go? And I'm like, oh, he's in a he's in a phase. He's like doing something, he's like processing or making something. So I've stopped taking that personally. It's almost like when an artist hasn't released a CD in a while, you're not like, what the fuck? Mad at them. I

Speaker 1 mean, you might want them, you yeah, but like, is that fair? Like, it has nothing to do with you, and that's the thing. Like, no, it's not about you.

Speaker 3 Right, right, right.

Speaker 1 Um, but we make everything about us, and that's not a great thing either, but we do it.

Speaker 2 No, for sure. That's a good analogy. I mean, and also kind of what we were talking about earlier, where um, you know, someone you could be trying to talk to them or something, and they seem like there's you're you could tell that there's something wrong. Uh, and it, you know, most likely or just does also doesn't have to do with you. It doesn't mean they're upset with you, you know, they're just like ready to or just not ready to engage or whatever. And um, I think it's a good, you know, similar to like with musicians, where yeah, like, you know, you listen to a song a

Speaker 2 bunch of times in a row, it's okay to, you know, put that aside and and go on to somebody else and uh take in some new information or new new music. But um yeah, as I've grown older, I've definitely struggled more, I think, from what you were saying, uh on the opposite side, where I knew um I knew like since high school that I was like too desperate to um make friends. Uh there's a squirrel make trying to make friends with me right now. Um I was like too desperate, I always want like I always wanted to have plans, always wanted to like hang out, and

Speaker 2 so I knew I had to get comfortable on my own, and um, you know, it did kind of go too far where I I sort of like began to really crave the solitude and um uh you know, and it's something where I feel like there's more of a balance to be struck for sure that I am also seeking because I do, you know, enjoy my own time, but I also am where I feel like I I can't, you know, impose on others or like it would just, you know, they would just look at me so weird if I suddenly were to, you know, be um, you

Speaker 2 know, admit that I am struggling, you know, with whatever, just like uh emotionally or whatever. And so I've definitely been on a I mean we all are, but I've been been on an inward journey, and and as much as I do love to perform and you know, be with a group of people, it's definitely I don't know if it's just part of getting older too, where you just like you don't want to put up with as much bullshit, you know what I mean? Like you would go out with some friends of friends, and even if it wasn't a great time, like you know, you'd like just

Speaker 2 get drunk and whatever, and it'd be fine. Um put up with like boring conversations, but I don't know. I've never been one for that too much either, where I would, you know, usually would just bail if I really wasn't feeling uh if I wasn't feeling it. But I don't know if I I think it's what I what I think is it's like you have to also balance these these things that feel um it's the same way where it's like you don't want to be as you you know as you get older and start like decrying all the you know uh young people technology and kids these

Speaker 2 days and stuff like that. You have to make sure that you're yeah, you have to make sure that you're I mean there is some you know bullshit there always is, but you have to make sure that you are you know checking yourself and not like um just giving in to that sort of fear of new things and fear of like new experiences. Sometimes you do need to kind of you know kick yourself in the butt and be like, okay, well, I'm I did go out by the way on Sunday.

Speaker 1 Remember when we were talking? I did, I did, I did. I mean I did.

Speaker 2 Oh, what do you think? Was it I mean, because it it's not always it's not always a fucking miracle. For listener up, so you know what we're saying.

Speaker 1 I was talking to Jay on Sunday, and I was like, okay, so here's the deal. I got invited to go to this like Easter Day hangout. And I don't really wanna go, but I kind of feel like I should go. I mean, it's like it's not a friend's house, and I do like the people who are gonna be there, but it's always kind of like the same thing where what did I say? I said, like, I'm gonna get dressed up and I'm gonna look really fabulous, and I'm gonna feel really excited, and then I'm gonna go. Yeah, that part is nice. But then as soon as

Speaker 1 I get there, I'm gonna instantly be like, um, I miss Red and get like a teeny bit socially awkward, because I kind of do, and um go inside, have some nice like pleasantries with people, but not really go super deep because I don't really feel like this is like my community. They're really nice, but they're not like they're more like acquaintances that I know. And then I'm soon I'm gonna realize that I want to go home and I'll go home and be like, well, why did I do that? And um I still went though, because I thought, you know what? I really barely go anywhere. Woo

Speaker 1 woo! Um I feel like maybe if we acknowledge the animals, they would like. Um anyway, yeah, yeah, there you go. Um I went and I was glad I went. I felt nice to get dressed up. I did see some people, um, had a few laughs, and it was nice to see, you know, my friend who was hosting it. She's like one of my best friends, and I think it meant a lot to her. Got out of the house and also just driving, feeling the air, listening to music, noticing actually I felt kind of anxious on the way. I didn't like any of the songs. I hit

Speaker 1 some traffic, but it's like that's life. It's like showing up sometimes when you don't necessarily want to. I usually don't tell people to do shit that they don't really want to do. But sometimes when you do and you're open to a new experience, you're open to saying, you know what, I don't really want to go. But what if I meet someone? What if I see something, hear something, listen to something? Uh that's happened a lot, where in the places I didn't want to be, I was still open to maybe I there's something here for me. And I've gotten some really cool experiences through that. So, you

Speaker 1 know, maybe as you're listening to this, first let's just give the birds a moment. Yeah.

Speaker 1 No, I kind of liked it though, because again, that's the other thing. It's like an annoying dinner guest who doesn't shut the fuck up, and you're like, you know what, let me just give you some time. Because maybe if you got it out, I guess birds are a little different, but um and annoying dinner guests, yeah. So try not to invite those people to dinner is the other thing, but you know, uh, we we live, we learn. Point is I don't know what the point is. The point is what is it?

Speaker 2 No, I I agree that that yeah, we um it is a balance. Sometimes you do have to go, but I think the most important thing is to recognize what you're feeling and what's happening, and um because there are also times where like I fucking have opened up to straint to absolute strangers, and they have also opened up to me in just like such crazy ways that sometimes you know you'll find someone else who is also feeling squirrely at the party and you know doesn't really want to be there, and you both can kind of like commiserate about that at least, you know what I'm saying? And

Speaker 2 I I I think that's yeah, exactly. Those are the best, and that's kind of what you hope for. Um, but yeah, I just think it's also important to keep that in mind. Like sometimes it will be weird, but you'll find someone else there and you'll appreciate it.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's one of my favorite parts of going to a party and then stepping out and having a cigarette. I'm like, oh, I'm gonna meet another person who's a little bit of a rebel and also wants to just not be in there, but be outside and talk and really um I do enjoy moments of like real human connection. That to me is like hearing that song and being like, whoa, it's like I've heard it before. Whoa, it's like I've met you before. You're it is intoxicating. I mean, uh, quite a few of my love affairs have started that way. Uh, quite a few of my friendships

Speaker 1 have started that way. And that's always really beautiful. And the other thing that as you were talking came to me was like, gosh, just the importance of being honest and checking in with people. Meaning, if I have a rule that if I'm, well, first of all, I'm always the DJ. Like people know that. Like if I am having a party or going to a party or we're taking a road trip, I always am in charge of the music. A little bit of that, okay, fine, fine. But but but you'll know this. Yeah, I do trust you because what is the rule? The rule is if at

Speaker 1 any point a song comes on that anyone does not like, they say it and I change it. Like I, it's really, really, really important to me that the music is is is good enough for everyone because literally being in a car or at a party with music that I dislike is so uncomfortable. I leave. I can't handle it, which is why I try to be in control of it because I know that what I'm playing, I do like and I know people well enough that I kind of know. Yeah, I mean, again, and what does good mean? It's gonna be good. It could mean different things.

Speaker 1 I also over-communicate with people. I say, hey, I have a little bit of like ADHD. I'm gonna switch the songs. Is that gonna bug you super hard? If I can tell someone's really into a song, I'll ask for permission. Can I change it? If they say no, I'll let it go. But the point is just tell people what you need. Ask people what they need and be willing, if you're willing, actually, to just be okay if someone says, Hey, can you change this song? Oh, I don't really like this. Like it, and I want to acknowledge it's not always easy, right? Like, that's what I want

Speaker 1 to know for you as a musician. Let's say you make a song. Have you ever made a song and you it's new and you haven't really shared it, and you want to share it, but you're kind of nervous because you don't know if people are gonna like it. And you probably know, oh, well, should I care about other people liking it? But you probably do. Like, I want to hear about that process. Like, what do you do as a musician around like creating music, releasing music, and then trying to stay sane from like the balance of doing it for you, doing it for the audience, because

Speaker 1 there's probably something around listening in there that could be a really good lesson for us.

Speaker 2 Yeah, as soon as you brought it up, I it struck with me that it's uh yeah, it's uh a great thing to talk about because it did force me to really, it was kind of the first thing where I had to really appreciate the fact that sometimes, especially as I was starting off, and like I would send people new songs I was working on and like send it to all my friends because part of it is like, you know, I want everyone to know what I'm working on, and part of it is like I hope you know, I want them to think I'm improving and doing

Speaker 2 good and like making good, cool music that they're like impressed with, and like, oh wow, this is great. But um sometimes I would get put, you know, or most of the time I would say I would send someone a song, and it's like one, you know that like there are many musicians out there who have lots of music that they want to share, and that you know, it you feel kind of cliche just being like, Oh, tell me what you think of this, you know, song, but you know, don't hurt my feelings.

Speaker 4 Like uh lie to me. Just lie. Tell me about it, tell me I'm good. Tell me, yeah. You're so good. You're so good. You're so good.

Speaker 2 Tell me I'm good. Tell me I'm good, tell me I'm good. So it's like you're balancing all of that um with this like hidden hope that people are like, oh my god, Mr. New Bob Dylan, I can't believe anyone would ever, you know, you're kind of like hoping that people react that way. But you know, you get used to sort of like even if you think something is amazing, you know, other people just have a taste. And no, no, but like, but that's kind of like how I had to do it in my head, where I was like, and the the truth is, is that I

Speaker 2 have when when I started doing uh like the musicals in high school is when I realized that I didn't really care what other people thought of my performance because I knew it was good, or I knew that I messed something up and that bothered me. So it's like I just remember hearing not to you know, I mean it's a high school musical, everyone's gonna get praise after the musical. And I just remember everyone saying, Oh, you know, all the nice things they would say, and I would always just like receive them and be very gracious, obviously, because that's just kind of you know, I'm very humble

Speaker 2 too. So humble. Um it's it was something where I realized like, yeah, that it didn't really bring me to the, you know, like this satisfaction. It didn't really bring me anything other than like uh well, of course you liked it. Like, you know, I I killed it, like I did a you know, I did a good job. Um or if I didn't do a good job, it was like, well, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about, you know. So like doesn't really matter what you're what praise you're you're you know putting on me. So the same with music, I kind of had to like

Speaker 2 accept that uh I really was doing it for myself. And even when I performed um that it was like trying to put on the best performance, um, which definitely requires you know like an audience reaction, but ultimately the same with like the songs I was sending people, this was about me and um you know, me putting something, playing something for somebody and expecting it's like when you it's like when someone has tried to um show you their favorite movie and they're sitting there watching you watch the movie the whole time, like get ready for this part, or like you didn't react the way I wanted you

Speaker 2 to react to this part. It's like it takes all the enjoyment out of it. So I kind of quickly became aware of like um what people to the fact that like if it was really good, both like the songs I was sending to people or the performance I would have, that they would tell me and that the more I tried to like goad something out of somebody, uh the more it it rang flat, or you know, obviously it's like if you don't love somebody, it's something and and someone, like I said, is watching you watch like their favorite movie, you just start being like, Oh yeah,

Speaker 2 this is great, and like you know, you know, it's like it it puts it changes the whole thing. So I kind of yeah, did have to quickly realize that you know, people might not even really want to hear a new song right now or be in a place to like listen to a three-minute song, or like, you know, if I sent them a music video that I did, you know, to like watch this video and then come up with a whole bunch of like happy critiques of it. It's like that's not not everyone is also not everyone is a musician. Not everyone is like as I

Speaker 2 don't mean this like in a an oh I'm so different kind of way, but not everyone is is obsessed or is focused on you know the fucking kick drum on your song, you know what I'm saying? It's like people know what how they feel and they know how it makes them feel, and that's another thing I also had to re to realize is that it doesn't matter what the song means to me, you know, or how deep I think the lyrics are, uh, you know, describing a freaking breakup or whatever, singing about a girl. Like it matters how the song makes somebody feel. And um also

Speaker 2 you know, like we were saying about lyrics that you know, happy lyrics and they're or like sad lyrics to a happy song, or happy lyrics to a sad song. It's like it's really just about um, and that's where it gets into like you know, and that's also why I started, I did shift to disco because at first I was doing like a lot of early rock and you know, like rock and roll and country kind of uh songs, Bob Dylan-ish kind of stuff, and I was focusing more on the lyrics and wanting to be seen as like a poet and you know, some like intellectual like

Speaker 2 that. Um, but you know, I realized like I could I could be making music in my bedroom for the rest of my life and play it for nobody and feel you know, the most uh sophisticated man in the world. Um but the truth is that I did want to engage with people, and music was a way for me to sort of address these hard to talk about that's why I always liked making songs about hard to talk about concepts that still rang true for people, even though you know we don't uh speak about them a lot. And um but and that's like I said, where I've

Speaker 2 kind of leaned more towards uh disco, and while I can still focus on the words and the lyrics, you know, they're more for me as like a little bit of like um, you know, just wanting to create something good or cohesive with the music uh that I'm making. But really it doesn't matter the words that you're saying, you know. Um it's and that's another thing too. I I started to I changed how I it didn't change it, but as I became more of a songwriter, I realized that it wasn't about writing words and then putting them to music. For me, it was about creating the music

Speaker 2 and hearing the words that should be sung at that time. And it became much more clear to me the more that I, you know, practiced or whatever advanced as a musician, but it's more about like plucking something out of the air and you know, carving something out of wood rather than like um you know uh coming up with like a design and and trying to just make that um as itself. So uh yeah, in many ways, um it is about your interaction with somebody else and putting your creating something that stands on its own. Um and it's very interesting the way that you know once you

Speaker 2 do release a song or put a song out, that how people react to it, hopefully they react to it. Um and yeah, it's an interesting yeah, it's an interesting push of like your ego and everything. You have to sort of like not even push that aside, but more just like be comfortable with the fact that it is all about your ego in a sense that when you're creating it, and then once it's once it's created, then it's um its own thing that will, you know, will that will give, you know, a lot of people say that if you're thinking about like how it is, how it's

Speaker 2 gonna be while you're making it, it's never gonna be as good.

Speaker 1 So I think that's the interesting part. Is it is about you. You are literally the creator, that is your ego. And if then your ego continues to obsess about now is it good? How do people like it? That it just creates a lot of honestly, it creates pain and stress for you, but I also think it puts a lot of pressure on other people as well. So, kind of like the few notes that I wanted to reflect back to the listener as I was listening to, you said all kinds of things. Wow, listening to you is also so interesting because it's like you're going in all

Speaker 1 these, you're such an artist. No, I get it. It's it's fascinating. I do that too. But the main thing is like if you're asking for feedback on your creative endeavors, even like for me, I might send a podcast to someone and say, hey, what do you think about this particular thing? So before you do that, I think get really clear with yourself on why are you doing this? What is your intention? And tell them that. Right, yeah. Because you gotta help giving someone feedback is a big deal. Like I've honestly done it and like I get paid to do it. And when I get paid to

Speaker 1 do it, it's actually a lot easier because I'm the coach. I I and like I and it's helpful, but it with a friend, I literally will say, Do you need Svet the friend or Svet the coach? Because I need to know how to, it's not like one is true and one isn't. It's just different. I will listen differently. Do you need acknowledgement? Do you need a uh a boost, or do you want me to get super freaking hardcore? I gave someone, I interrupted a client yesterday while they were like doing some job prep with me. And oh, he got real defensive and pissed off. And I

Speaker 1 was like, uh, that is my job. I am watching you communicate in a way where you're going off the rails. I need to interject to help you. And he was so thrown off that then I was like, well, fuck you. But anyway, I didn't say that. I understand that's what happened. So I'm just saying, well, it's not even right. It was my professional opinion. And if you don't want it, then don't ask me for it. He didn't like the way that I did it, but that's fair. Again, my advice is for those listening, if you're a creative and you're asking for feedback, get really, really clear

Speaker 1 first with yourself. Why am I asking for this? And then just tell the person what you really need. It's very appropriate to say, hey, I worked super hard on this and I'm feeling kind of self-conscious. Can you just tell me what you like about it? That's fine. Or, yo, I fucking love this. Am I delusional? Like be honest. You know, maybe I'm missing something. So just be clear with you, be clear with others. And then the other thing is just remember what is, and this is how we're gonna start to rap. I say this a lot, and this is really true. What is said and what

Speaker 1 is heard are two different things. When you and I were looking at all those songs, I literally realized that some of my favorite songs that I've probably I sang them so much that I haven't heard them in like 15 years, and I still sang them. I was completely singing the wrong lyrics. I had no idea. And then when I looked at the lyrics, I was like, oh, in some cases, I was like, these are even more beautiful. And in some cases, I was like, oh, I do not want to be singing that. So the point is think of the people who've been in your life. Right.

Speaker 1 And this is where I'm gonna tie in the kind of homework for today. I want you to think about the relationships that you've had with people who you would equate to being like a song you've known and maybe loved for a long time. And I want you to ask yourself like, are you talking and listening to them habitually to the point where, like, I know what they're gonna say. They always kind of say the same thing. I've heard this before. And do, and do then do you tune out? Because, first of all, your homework first one is um find a song like that that you pretty

Speaker 1 sure you know the lyrics to and read the lyrics. And I want you to just see if you, like me and Jay, will discover that oh, whoa, first I didn't even know the lyrics, and then just start approaching those friendships, those conversations that you've been having, kind of like how I was gonna go on Sunday, and I'm like, well, I've already gone 20 times and it's definitely gonna go this way. Just like check yourself. You might be misreading something. Also, people change, like lyrics to words don't change, but the song can change depending on how you hear the lyrics. It's the same thing with humans, right?

Speaker 1 I want you to have deeper relationships with people with music, with life. And before we wrap, and I give you no, I'm gonna give you the other homework assignments, and then I'm gonna tell a really quick story because it has to do with you, and I think it'll be a great way, I hope, to rap. The other homework that I want to give you is I want you to send a song to a friend. Just find a song that you really love and just send them and don't even say anything. Just send a song and don't expect I'll respond. Don't expect they're gonna like it. Just

Speaker 1 send a song that you think they will like. Just try it out. If it's something you do often, great, do it again. If it's something you've never done, try it out, see how it feels to just connect over music. Because you know what happens when I get a song, my first question when I listen to it is, are they trying to send me a message? Like I will listen to the lyrics. Like I've had an ex send me a song that was like this epic love ballad. And I'm like, oh, he's still in love with me and he definitely is thinking about me. And then I

Speaker 1 literally called him and I was like, Hey, why'd you send me that song? And he's like, Oh, I just knew you'd love the like tone of the chorus. And I'm like, Okay, you are not in love with me anymore. But it's just, it's so funny. Just notice how often you are making up a story about what a lyric means, what the words that someone is saying, what they mean, you do not know. So ask them, stop making assumptions and listen, listen deeply and check in on a friend who you maybe haven't checked in with in a while. Just like check in with a friend. And if

Speaker 1 they're doing well, awesome. Celebrate that. And if they're struggling, consider what it would look like to just hold their hand metaphorically or physically, ask them what they need, maybe send a song that might be the exact song that they need of the moment. And it doesn't have to be a happy one, it could be a very solemn one. Basically, just start paying more attention to the people in your life because that's Things can end really quickly. And I want to say this before I ask Jay if you have any last words. Um, probably about 10 years ago, we were in the city, we were hanging out,

Speaker 1 and I went to the bathroom to change. My contact was bothering me. And as I'm in the bathroom and my contact was all funny, I reached in, I couldn't see. Like one of them was in my eye, the other one was all bad. I reached into the cabinet and grabbed what I thought was contact solution, but instead it was hydrogen peroxide. I then sprayed the hydrogen peroxide in my eye. And then what happened was full-blown panic. Yeah, my world literally went white. I couldn't see. I thought I had blinded myself. As this is happening, I'm like throwing my face into the sink. I'm putting water in

Speaker 1 my eye and I'm spinning because in my mind I thought, oh my God, that's it. I will never see again. I will never, I'm blind. And remember, I was a photographer at that time. So the idea that I lost my sight, and I remember literally you came in to the bathroom. Like you were with me. And again, I don't even know if you remember this because to me, this is something I'll never forget. But to you, it might have just you like you had no idea what was going on with me in that moment. That was one of the scariest moments of my life. And I

Speaker 1 remember I waited there for a while. You you checked in on me. I don't think you realized again exactly what was happening or how scary it was. And finally, with enough water in my eye, my like sight started coming back. And I remember I walked outside and it was dark and it had just rained. And I looked at the tree and I saw a leaf with like the little droplets of water, and it was the most beautiful thing I had ever seen. I was like literally, I just stood there being so grateful that I could see the little droplets of water on the fucking leaf. And

Speaker 1 I probably would never have done that had I not thought I'd gone blind. Um, I wanted to share that because it feels deeply connected. Like sight is a sense that we have. Uh sound, right? Our ability to listen is a sense. And imagine if suddenly you lost it. You couldn't hear. You could never hear those birds chirping, you could never hear a freaking song. I think if I had to lose a sense, I listening, hearing would be the last one I'd want to give up because to me that is truly even more than sight. Uh it it it really feeds my soul. And then I just

Speaker 1 want you to imagine that tomorrow you just cannot hear anything. And I want you to start listening as if that could happen. Like, how would you listen to every musical tune, to every song, to every person if you thought you had one day left to actually hear anything? Because even for me, I'm gonna start doing that a little bit more. It would, I think, make me appreciate every sound, even the garbage truck and the freaking birds, you know what I mean? So I don't know. I just wanted to share that because you were with me in that moment, and and it just it it brought me

Speaker 1 back to the gratitude of every moment and what we get to hear, and then the story we get to make up about it.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I do remember that moment. I do remember uh not understanding quite how serious it was at the time. Um, but I yeah, you don't really appreciate what you have until it's gone, unfortunately. Um, but I will say that another memory that I have that I wanted to bring up was these headphones that my good friend Svetilana uh got for me one birthday when I was in a pretty low spot and I didn't really have nice headphones. These are really like the first nice headphones that I've ever had that allowed me to really listen to music and walk around, and um it was just such a

Speaker 2 nice, and I mean these are these are very expensive too, they're not cheap. It was such a nice gift. Um and I yeah, I just thought it was uh something I've always remembered and appreciated. Um, because it was a time where I was like just coming out here, I was really struggling, I didn't really have anything. Um, and it was such a nice luxury thing.

Speaker 1 And sometimes, you know the bottom line is it's all about money.

Speaker 2 I think that's what we're getting.

Speaker 1 Uh Jay, thank you so much. That that was I completely forgot about that. But now that you said it, I literally remember how excited I was to buy those for you because at the time I had a job. And you know, I was I was like always kind of like, yeah, I was so excited because yeah, you were struggling a little bit, and also you were so committed to your music. And I just I think you visited and you had these shitty headphones. And I just remember I love gift giving, you know, that is my love language. And I was like, oh my God, I want

Speaker 1 to buy him like the best headphones. And then I want to surprise him because I like didn't tell you, I like mailed them to you. And I remember you literally called me and you left me like the nicest, most grateful voicemail. I think I saved it. I might still have it 10 years later. It was so nice to see how much you just you were so happy, you were so appreciative. And let me just tell the listener how many years later? I was probably eight years later, I'm home back in Maryland. I was in another dark place, and I had a pair of headphones that broke,

Speaker 1 and I mentioned it to you just very casually. And you literally, what did you do? I think you said something like, Well, uh, I think it like it's time for you to get like for you to be kind of for you to have something nice done for you the way you did for me, and you fucking bought me a pair of those really expensive, like it was so that meant so much to me. I still see those headphones, and I'm like, man, that is so much more than money. That is literally that is masterful listening. Like, you see something, an opportunity, a chance to love someone,

Speaker 1 do something nice. And yes, if it's a $300 pair of headphones, sure, it's not about the money. I think it it meant a lot more to me. So, oh, that was like the sweetest way to end this episode that I did not see coming. So thank you.

Speaker 2 Gotta keep a few surprises. Um, thank you. And um, yeah, just thanks for everything, Svet, and I look forward to the next 13 years.

Speaker 1 Yes, yes, yes. All right. Oh, by the way, enjoy the outro because guess who composed it? This guy. And I'm linking, yeah, I'm linking your um your Spotify and um tune in next time. Bye bye, masterful listeners,