The Art Of Masterful Facilitation | Featuring Insights From Master Facilitator & Coach Anya Soto

Speaker 1 Ha ha! We did it. Me and Anya being quiet together, waiting for this podcast to begin. It's not easy, but as we know, we gotta stitch in that music. So we had a little moment of meditation. Uh so hello, Anychka. Anya, Anya Soto. You are my second guest on this masterful listening podcast, KKA, the super rad listening school that you really want to go to. And this is episode eight. And I was actually gonna look up what eight means before, but I didn't have time because I was running late. So, welcome.

Speaker 2 Thank you, Boo. Thanks for having me. I I I messaged you yesterday. I was actually driving to my yoga and I'm like, oh, I love your voice. I'm like, I can listen to you forever. Which not a lot of people will say about themselves. When I listen to my own voice, I'm like, oh my god, who's this person?

Speaker 1 Oh my gosh, I was actually just thinking about our uh uh podcast, and I thought, if I mention, you know, I always, and if you're new to the podcast, you'll see that since this is not just a place of epic storytelling and lessons, but I'm gonna invite you to listen in a certain way because this is a listening school and a listening practice that sometimes listening to someone with an accent is just you know a thing. And you've told me before that you don't have one, and yet you have a beautiful accent, and you're laughing right.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you know what I found actually. When I'm at conferences, I think people listen more because they almost have to listen harder. And I'm like, oh, that's so interesting. It kind of serves me because people are actually paying attention to what I'm saying. So they're like, what, what, what, what did you say?

Speaker 1 Yes, but that's the point, is that in life and in listening, things don't always sound exactly like we want them to. We're not always not only hearing the things we want to hear, but like, what if it's fuzzy? What if it's too fast? What if the hair there is an accent? I recently met a wonderful neighbor, she's an older Asian woman, and I just liked her so much. She had a really heavy accent, and I noticed there's a part of me, and remember, I'm an immigrant, my parents have accents. I don't have one since I've been here for so long, but I love them, and it

Speaker 1 can be hard, literally, sometimes. Your accent isn't hard to the point where people don't understand you. It's just unique, it's different. Well, it's true. I don't have trouble understanding you unless you're talking way too fast, which is the other thing I'm gonna have to invite people to do here. So, actually, before we even dive in, because I want people to listen to everything through a certain lens today, okay? And then we're gonna go in and I wanna introduce who you are, and then we're gonna have a conversation that we've kind of talked about, and yet we're both like we plan a little and then we flow

Speaker 1 with life. So we'll see where we get. But masterful listening. Okay, this is the first time you're hearing this. I'm gonna bottom line it. Me and Anya are both very good at bottom lining things, which means uh saying them very succinctly, uh, getting the point uh across real quick. And we we're also very good at talking for a very long time, but that's um, I won't go there right now. You'll see that you'll see that in a second. So, bottom line, masterful listening. What does that mean? You are listening fully, it's based on kind of the level three listening concept, which both both of us now.

Speaker 1 Maybe I talk with a little Eastern European accent. Oh yes. Um, but yeah, listen not just to what we're saying, feel our energy, okay? Pay attention at every level. You might not be able to see us unless you're watching the video, and lucky you, because look at how gorgeous this human being is. And I mean me. I mean I mean, I mean Anya. I mean both of us, okay. Uh, but the point is listen also to what do we say? What are we not saying? How are we speaking? We are both fast talkers. So I'm gonna invite you to try for this episode, be a fast

Speaker 1 listener. And also notice if there's a moment where you missed it, you got confused. We're also humans, in my experience of knowing you for oh my gosh, what, over five years now, that we can switch gears really fast, right? It's like poo, boo, boo. That could be hard to follow. So I'm saying that up front. Masterful listening means A, you're genuinely curious. Do you want to be here? Because if you're not actually curious about hearing two uh fabulous Eastern European women talk about, you know, all kinds of things related to facilitation, storytelling, communication, listening, fucking all so many things in life, then I suggest you either

Speaker 1 tune back in at a time where you actually have the space to listen or invite yourself to be authentically curious, to pay attention. And if you get distracted by your kid or your dog or your phone ringing, come back, right? The only thing we can do when we fall off the horse, get back on the horse. That's the metaphor that came from.

Speaker 1 That was not okay, that was a little longer. Okay, you know what? I did my best, and frankly, there's a time to bottom line, there's a time to shut up. So, with that being said, let me introduce you and then be more quiet.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 1 Uh, who is Anya Soto? Well, first I want to say that when I first, and I'm gonna ask you about this too, when I first saw you without knowing you, I saw a photo of you on I think Facebook because we were about to be in the same leadership program and they sent the list of all the participants. So I was like being a little not creepy, but like I wanted to see who else was in the group. Yeah, and literally you to me, without me knowing you, looked like when I imagined the classical Barbie, like that's who I saw. This like gorgeous, blonde, beautiful. I

Speaker 1 was like intimidated by the photo, uh, which was a cool feeling. And yet I'm like, I wonder what this human is actually like.

Speaker 2 Doing in the leadership program.

Speaker 1 And that was funny because when I met you and saw you, I was like, wait a minute. What happened?

Speaker 4 I don't know what happened. I went through divorce. I went from like a beautiful Barbie to a Cinderella that wasn't forced and being a single mom. That's what happened.

Speaker 1 You also shaved your head and had like the coolest fucking like you actually just you physically were different, you energetically were different, which is beautiful because that's one of the things I love most about you. You're multidimensional, and because of your listening to yourself, your life is literally a thousand percent different. But who are you? What do you do? So, Anya is an organizational designer, you're an HR business consultant. You basically design, and it's funny, I keep going between third person and first person. So, yes, let me do this actually as if I'm introducing you at a large conference, because frankly, there might be millions of

Speaker 1 people listening to this episode, uh, as I hope they are, because I want the world to know your brilliance. So Anya designs and delivers, got at this point over what 700 training sessions, uh over 20, I gotta say, award-winning uh organizational solutions for clients, right? So she works with entrepreneurs, with entrepreneurial brands, mid-sized businesses, massive companies like uh the Rockefeller Foundation, Stanford University. Shout out to Stanford. We were both at the same time at Stanford, which was kind of cool. Staples, Hyundai. Uh, she founded a company called Culture Crafters, uh, which is basically a network of performance consultants. Uh, I'm one of them, thank you. Uh

Speaker 1 coaches, facilitators, instructional designers, and helps organizations develop and implement custom solutions so that there's less turnover, so that there's more talent attraction, so that there's retention, so that people can actually work in environments where not only are they feeling good, they're doing better work, right? So she's a certified coach through the International Coaching Federation with over a thousand plus hours. Man, is that the master level coach at this point?

Speaker 2 Or is that like I I could qualify, yeah. I I chose not to, but I think, yeah, with the the amount of hours, yeah, I could qualify.

Speaker 1 But the point is who cares?

Speaker 2 I mean, everybody cares.

Speaker 1 Well, the thing is, some people care, and I'm I'm showing this because not only like I don't care if you're a certified coach. If you're awesome and I feel like you can help me, that to me doesn't necessarily matter. But when I see that someone like you has had this much experience and has designed so many custom solutions that like improve company culture, which was what I was most passionate about. And that's what really attracted us. I mean, that is fascinating. And one of the reasons I've always respected you is you actually learned facilitation, like you studied this craft, whereas I was more drawn to it.

Speaker 1 So I didn't have like the education, I more honestly learned through practice, which hey, both are important. But the point is, she's a total boss and a total badass and an entrepreneur and a mom. And to me, you're one of, if not the strongest people I've ever met, which is kind of how I describe you when I bring you up in conversations. So yeah, no big deal. You know, just like a super rad, amazing human being. And thank you for coming on to my podcast.

Speaker 2 Oh, thank you so much. I love that you know, life made kind of full circle because we did meet in when you were living in San Francisco and California. And I remember I was living in Toronto at a time, flying in and thinking, like, dang, like some people live in California. What would that be like? And I actually remember, I remember the exact moment because we used to fly for this uh leadership development program every three months, and then I made some connections. I actually flew in to do some work facilitation. I remember going with big headphones at the San Francisco airport, listening to some cool

Speaker 2 music and thinking, like, yeah, this could be my life. Like I can totally see myself living here, and now I am. And two years ago, my wife and I moved to San Diego, and it's like the best decision of my life. I love it. I'm obsessed with San Diego and its people and culture and ocean and all of the things.

Speaker 1 Oh my god, I'm obsessed with you for many reasons. But do you remember I was visiting you and Lily, I don't even know which time, but it was one of the times. And I we had a moment where we were on the beach, I think at night, and I might have my daughter swimming in the dark.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 1 I did, and that was really profound and powerful.

Speaker 2 She believes she loves it. It's such a powerful memory, yeah.

Speaker 1 And it's such a powerful metaphor of like, can you go in the dark with someone and be safe and trust and have an adventure? Which I mean, honestly, that is actually a great metaphor for us in a way, because we're both very big and bright, and yet we've been through, and I didn't go, and my wife didn't go, but my 13-year-old daughter at a time was like, hell yeah, what a good we're braver, I think, often as as younger beings before we've been traumatized with life. Yeah, but the point I wanted to bring up was I literally, I don't know if you remember this. I said,

Speaker 1 dude, do you see what you did? Like at the time when we were in that leadership program, you literally that was your dream. It felt delusional pitching the last episode. The dream of you were in Toronto, you were. I mean, I'm not you can say more if you want, but the point is the idea that you would be first of all married to a beautiful woman, living in California in a beautiful place, doing exactly what you dreamed. It was a real dream, but it it felt like, how is that gonna happen? And you did it.

Speaker 2 I know that's amazing. It's insane, it is insane because at a time a lot of people would tell me, like, Anya, you belong on the West Coast, you love being outside, you love playing sports, and I'll be like, Yeah, that's never gonna happen. And it's like again, going back to those, right? The storytelling. You talk a lot about storytelling on your podcast and the limiting beliefs that this was not even on my radar. I was like, that is never gonna happen, like for many, many multitude of reasons. That is just not my my life, that's not my reality, that's not where I am, and maybe one

Speaker 2 day I will retire. And and then, yeah, and I think partially it was due to me meeting my wife after the leadership program and her being like, We can do anything, and I'm like, Yeah, accept that. And she's like, No, like we can do whatever we want, like, this is our life, we can create our life, and I think just having that one more person saying, Listen, this is your life, you can do anything you want. Do you really want it? And us leaning in, and I think COVID helped, but it's like it was a lot of leaning in when things got really hard. It was

Speaker 2 not an easy transition by no means.

Speaker 1 And with that, can we just send a shout out to Lily? Yeah, who we both love so much. Gosh, her wife Lily. Hi, Lily, you better be listening to this at some point. Uh is just yeah, yeah, you know, and not this is how I wanted to get Lily to listen to my podcast. I'm like, I might interview Anya and then talk about you. But really, yeah, Lily is, I mean, an exquisite, incredible human on many levels. But you're right, you even said somewhere, listen, this is your life. Of course, we can do it. And sometimes you need someone else to just say, actually, yes, you

Speaker 1 can. And in fact, why don't we make the dream even a little bit bigger? Right. And we've definitely done that for each other. So that's actually my first question is you you made a delusional dream real. So, what I want to know is how was listening tied to that? Like, or or was it like what did you how did you have to listen? What did you listen to, whether internally or externally, that actually gave you whatever, the courage, the determination, the strength to do this?

Speaker 2 That's a good question. Powerful question. Um, and I I don't think I've ever shared it, but we like you said, I listen a lot to myself and I listen a lot to like, do I actually want to do it? Because it's gonna be hard. And then I listened a lot to my partner, I listened to my kids. We had a lot of conversations with our children, and we share three kids of like what would life be like? And we started dreaming first, and then we created the vision board, and it was a three-year vision board that we kind of broke it down, just like I would

Speaker 2 do with teams, into like quarters, and we said, like, winter of like I don't remember now, 2019, and then spring and then summer, and what needs to happen every quarter to make this dream a reality? And we had a map that we followed, and and I think then what I also believe in it's uh like I strongly believe in setting intention, but then listening to life because what happened was uh a year and a half into our vision board, as we were making it a reality, COVID started. And I mean, obviously, COVID was not on our freaking vision board, we did not account for that, that

Speaker 2 all the schools will shut. I know, I'm like weird, like, hey, how about five-year plan? Well, that strategy went out the window because everything changed like overnight, and and actually, COVID accelerated our dream, and we listened to what was happening in the world, what was happening in life. A big uh point for me was that I did have a business in Toronto and I did work with a lot of clients, and a lot of this work was in person. COVID made us go virtual, and I was like, damn, if I don't have to be here in person doing all the work, that means we can live

Speaker 2 anywhere, we can do anything. So I think I don't know if that answers the question, but I think it's like setting intentions and being intentional with your life, but then also listening to what is happening around me and how is my life guiding me. And we are both very spiritual and just yeah, it just choosing to respond to also what's happening in the moment. And I think that's kind of facilitation, right?

Speaker 1 Yes. Wow. I want to ask a follow-up, and yet look at me, I just realized my headphone.

Speaker 5 I actually thought of it. I was like, wow, that's a cool design. I saw one here.

Speaker 3 No, I I like turned my head and was like, this is so you. And also, I want to say one of my favorite things about you is you have the best laugh of anyone in the world. Wow.

Speaker 1 I mean, that's the thing, right? If you're not laughing, I what is it? Like life is a tragedy for those who think in a comedy for those two who feel. And so you and I also always are laughing. Even in art, oh my god, we've probably laughed more. Maybe I've laughed more with you than with anyone. And again, it's not a contest, but if it was, I think we win.

Speaker 5 Um especially the time when you mentioned when we met.

Speaker 2 I was at Stanford and you were at Stanford, and we were at a hotel pool, and I thought we would get kicked out. Like that was one of the funniest evenings of at least my 2023 for sure. Oh my god. Make each other laugh.

Speaker 1 Yeah, well, also a little interjection, and then I will come back to what you said, which is you're the only person that I've ever said, hey, can you be quiet? You're making people uncomfortable, which is what people told me my whole life, which triggers the shit out of me, and that you were like, I will be loud. That happened also on our road trip in Big Sur when we were playing table tennis and screaming, and I was like, Oh, Big Sur, I know. Yeah, but also that's connected to listening. Sorry, I by the way, if we interrupt each other, listener and you, it happens because we're

Speaker 1 excited. And I'm gonna try not to do that. Um, sometimes in that moment when I was like, oh no, are we too loud? That's called listening to an assumption and an inner critic in your head and assuming that you're bothering someone when actually most times when I'm that big, others are just laughing and they appreciate it, and they actually have come up to me in moments where I thought I was being inappropriate and said, Hey, thanks for bringing such wonderful energy, right? So it's just like an important thing to call out.

Speaker 2 Yeah, so true.

Speaker 1 Okay, so back to what you said. You said a lot of things, and I want to see if I can come back and remember the main one I wanted to ask. It's the attention versus listening to life. Yes, yes, and it's also when life happens like okay, there's a pandemic. I didn't see that coming, and now my children have to be home with me all the time, and suddenly I have to facilitate live uh courses. Uh-huh. Yeah. So that is in itself a very courageous and hard thing to do. Like, I gotta pivot super fast, or I'm gonna be miserable. So I want to talk about

Speaker 1 that. Like, so you were working. Tell us a little bit about what do you do for your work? Like, if you had to bottom line it or no, just what are what are you most excited to share about the work that you do so that people have a sense of like what you've been doing and how it's shifted?

Speaker 2 Yeah. I I mean so many things, but I think right now I am mostly being approached by companies that struggle with their culture, because of course we don't like prevention, and I always say, like, we can prevent a lot of things, but usually when stuff goes down or something happens, there's like HR complaints or they're struggling, retaining people, they would call us in and we would do a culture assessment and say, okay, what can we create? Is it do we train all of the manager supervisors? Do we work with the leadership team? Is it systems and processes? And that's why I say we kind of like

Speaker 2 custom design solutions for clients, depending on what is happening, because again, every company is different, every culture is different. But like you, and I'm an immigrant, and I did a lot of DNI work that I think led me here to this moment of like broader work. It's like, how are we creating systems that allow for all employees to thrive and to feel like you know they can do their best work and feel included and not intimidated? So that's kind of where the play field right now, and and it's always changing and it's always pivoting. And I am also doing a program specifically. For HR professionals, bridge

Speaker 2 in coaching and facilitation into HR because we can talk a lot about artificial intelligence technology and how that is changing our workplaces. But that's something I'm just passionate about human systems.

Speaker 1 I love that you said human systems. It's funny, as I was uh listening to you, uh the word uh kept showing up system, and then you said it. And tell me if you agree with this, because again, the culture piece really bonded us when we thought of leadership, right? Because this leadership program, just for actually for people listening, because for me it's still one of the best things I've done. I think you've said that. You actually really kept me motivated when I was like, fuck it, because it was really hard. It was a year-long program. It was hard, but I think it was meant to be

Speaker 1 hard because guess what? Leadership is hard. Um, it was through the Coactive Training Institute, shout out CTI. We'd both been certified there, and they do essentially it's a master's type program without the official, I don't know, letters. I don't care about that because what I got from it, frankly, whoa. Uh, but it's a year long, and the way it's structured is it's about 25 people, and you literally gather and you live together for a week every quarter, and you deep dive into not just leadership, but co-leading, meaning what is it like to co-lead? And frankly, whether you're co-leading a workshop or co-leading a marriage or co-leading

Speaker 1 anything with anyone, that just complicates it so much more. And then there's how are you also not just as a leader, how are you as a participant? How are you showing up in groups? Oh, I got some lessons there. But how does that relate to systems? Okay, yeah, systems. Do you feel like everyone is trying to copy everyone else's system versus build their own? Because that is why what you do to me is massive. We can't copy someone else's like people used to call me at delivering happiness when I was uh launching them after Zappos became super successful and say, How do I do? I want

Speaker 1 to do what Zappos did, and they had a completely different business, a different size company. And I said, Listen, let's get inspired by what Zappos did. Let's take some pieces just like I look at people and think, ooh, that's a cool thing. But I can't be exactly like you. You can't be like another company, but you could be the best company that you can be. So, how do you do these culture assessments? Like you said, culture assessment, so that you can help them build their own system, right? That works for them.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. Well, first of all, I want to say like the whole idea of like a culture fit. I actually believe culture fit is almost like toxic because it requires assimilation of different identities, and it's far away from authentic leadership or authenticity or belonging. So I'll start with that. We do assessment through there's an element of a survey where we're looking for specific themes and patterns, and then we do focus groups with employees at all the different levels of organization, and we actually assess things that are much kind of broader than a best place to work with assess. We assess interpersonal relationships because that's what creates

Speaker 2 culture. We assess how people treat each other, we assess how like do they even like each other? What's engaging for them? What's communication like, what's belonging like, what's the relationship again to their leadership team? And that's what creates culture. And for me, also within that culture, every team has its own culture, and every individual, so like you and I right now are co-creating a system, right? Like more than one individual is a system. So Ani and Svetlana has this like uh sometimes dysfunctional, sometimes I love that that's the point. Could you have started with a positive one? Anyway, I think dysfunctional is fun because we're always

Speaker 2 learning, we're always challenging each other, we're always. I think the best compliment to friendship is that I am fully myself, you are fully yourself, and we can speak from that place. Like to me, there's no better friendship than I don't need to adjust, I don't need to adapt, I don't need to try to change who I am, which both of us are immigrants and we're really good at that. I feel that, and sometimes I say stupid things to you.

Speaker 5 I still remember those moments, and sometimes you say stupid things to me, and I want you to tell me I love you.

Speaker 1 I want to hear what's a stupid thing you think you've said to me, or what's a stupid thing because I'm just I want to lie.

Speaker 2 I think you'll remember this, but you. I remember we were actually sitting by the fireplace, and you say, you know, like I can actually manifest anything in my life. You're like, Do you remember that moment? You're like, I get to dream and I can manifest, like I'm really good at like dreaming and manifesting. And there were a couple of challenging situations happening in your life at that time, or in your personal life. And I said, Well, Svetlana, maybe you're just a shitty manified dreamer.

Speaker 5 I think I said, Because if you manifested this dream, maybe that was a shitty dream, and you were like, you're like, Oh, I can't believe you said that. I'm like, I'm sorry, but it's like you did manifest it. Like you have to take ownership of the situation, like you co-created it with another human being.

Speaker 1 Do you remember that? Oh my god, yeah, and thank you because I forgot. But here's what was profound about that. First of all, you somehow were able to make a joke about like a really hard time, and I laugh my ass off. And you were right because remember, I told you, yeah, but it's just the way you said it. Maybe you're a shitty dreamer. I'm like, motherfucker. But you were right because guess what? I am, I would still say. Tell me if you agree, I am the most powerful manifestor and the most powerful evaporator. I had to learn that just like I created, I destroyed my

Speaker 1 entire life. Uh, a few times. I didn't, I don't think do it consciously, but I think somewhere I had to learn. Because also creation and destruction, destruction, destruction is connected. And frankly, I keep saying, if I had known the journey ahead, I would have said, hell no. Looking back, who I am now, I would do it again. And thank God for people like you. I just wrote down as you were talking, we're learning, we're laughing, we're loving, we're elevating. Like that is an awesome. I also feel like I can be fully myself with you. You're probably one of the only people who never has made me

Speaker 1 feel like I'm too much or too loud, because you're probably the only other person I know who gets told that who might be even more loud than me.

Speaker 2 So I love that.

Speaker 5 Totally, totally.

Speaker 2 Uh, I also want to talk, you know, about energy since we are on this topic, because uh part of the, and without revealing too much, but part of this leadership program was when you get typed about your essence and your personality, and it's interesting that the type that you were giving um were given in that program that was not my experience of you, and it continues not to be my experience of you. And again, maybe because I'm just as intense, so your intensity doesn't come across, right? But I'm like, that is so weird, but that's I don't know. I don't know if there's something around it's

Speaker 2 in facilitation again, right? Where we all just like listening, listening to energy, listening to the essence of other human beings and how I can see you in a group dynamic that way, and maybe that is your kind of like adaptive personality type, but not in your individual relationships. I don't know. Would you agree?

Speaker 1 I would, and actually, just to clarify, so that the people who don't know about what this is, can you explain quickly like what was the typing and also what were our types? And then I want to answer your question. I just want to make sure, actually, from a listening perspective, it might help because this is profound. I didn't think we'd go here, but super important.

Speaker 2 So, yeah, well, typing is really about the essence of people, and they do it very quickly. Considering we're in a program for a year, they did it within the first week, and people were like, but I don't really know them. And the idea is like, you don't need to know people, it's their essence. So Svitlana's type was danger, and danger is someone who you kind of feel uneasy around. That's my interpretation of it. They are people who speak the truth into the space, and you definitely show up in that, like they have very powerful presence. And I think even when you're quiet, it's even more powerful

Speaker 2 because you're like, you never know what's gonna come out of that mouth. It's like it's it's that energy between like a thunderstorm, they call it. And my type was eccentric, and eccentrics are I don't know, Svitana, what do you remember about eccentrics?

Speaker 1 Uh well, the first thing I remember is that everyone thought I would be typed eccentric. So that was also funny. Yeah, to me, eccentric is big and bold and expressive and fun. There, which again, you are actually all of those things. Uh, to me, eccentrics are they're the people who get, I don't know, I would describe it, and I don't remember if this was the way it was told. So you tell me because you know better. But like the eccentric people will be the fun party starters, they will participate big and loud. There's energy, but it feels like a more light and fun and um big

Speaker 1 and bright energy versus the danger type, which was so funny to hear that word danger. And also, I think it's totally actually me. The other two, only other two people who were typed, who are they? The two men covered in tattoos, uh, Rob and Tim. And so was I. So actually, I felt like I had my own little crew, and yet hearing the word and the intensity, I'm like, I'm not like that. And then someone said, Have you seen your face in a group when you don't agree with someone? Yeah, my face has a has a life of its own, and I do and can shift

Speaker 1 the energy of a group. And actually, that's the best thing I learned was that I can make it great. Oh, I can also really make it uncomfortable.

Speaker 2 And this is a superpower, right? So when we talk about facilitation, if you and I were to co-facilitate, it would look like, and you said something that Anya, you have my superpower is making really intense and complex and heavy topics light and accessible, and that's why I love doing inclusion, uh, equity work, because we're talking about power and privilege and all of those really hard things. But I have the I don't know, like my eccentric makes it, it's not even light, but it gives it life and it gives it that shared humanity. Where if you were to facilitate it, you would speak about it and make

Speaker 2 it, you're just more dramatic. If I'm the clown, you you bring kind of like more like dramatic energy, like this is serious, this is your life we're talking about.

Speaker 1 Well, which makes sense because I'm literally a mental wealth advocate. And frankly, you know, someone said something in a class I was just teaching that was fierce and profound. He said it in the chat, and it said, We are no use to our companies when we're dead. And honestly, this is a big fucking uh epidemic right now. And you know, I remember on the danger thing, the thing that really hit me because a part of me was first like, I don't make people uncomfortable, I'm not intense, I'm funny, and I'm all those things because we are both, you and I are chameleons, and we are people

Speaker 1 with a large range, which is really cool. And here's what she said: she said, here's the metaphor. It's like you're holding a gun and you're pointing it at someone. She said, You just gotta shoot it. Because actually, once you shoot it, meaning you need to just say the thing that's in the space, and then it's better because even though I make people uncomfortable, I've seen I usually do say the thing that needs to be said, and then we can move forward. It's better to just shoot the gun than keep pointing it at someone's head. Exactly. Because then they're just uncomfortable longer. And honestly, it's better for

Speaker 1 me too, because then I'm sitting there and I'm like, I wish someone else could say it. It's just rare. I think most people are very uncomfortable. And I'm like, you know what? I will take one for the team. And honestly, I've been kind of pissed about it. I'm like, why do I have to be? And yet, you know what? I can do it. I'm gonna do it. If someone else wants to do it, though, I am super down to let someone drive. And yet, that is my superpower too. So that's it.

Speaker 2 I want to bring it back to you. You said, can we copy the system? And I think in in in this context, in this conversation around leadership and facilitation and a work. No, you can't, because I cannot be you, and you cannot be me. And I think when we talk about facilitation, I actually, when you said Anya actually studied facilities, I don't think you can study it. Like I studied work design, I start, I studied instructional design, but facilitation is like, you know, they say it takes thousand hours to master a skill. And I would say that is true. I don't know if I am at

Speaker 2 a thousand hours or I'm getting close to a thousand hours, because what's powerful is influencing the space, but from your authentic style of leadership. Did you hear that breath? Oh, I love the quality of the microphone. You just took a deep breath.

Speaker 1 Like literally listening so well. No, really, I wrote down authentic because I actually had a very emotional reaction to that, because that's probably the feedback I get the most. They're like, wow, you share this mental health stuff so authentically that it's moving. And I'm like, I know because someone has to be real and talk about real stuff. What you're training people to do is really fucking important because it's saving people's lives and it's making companies more money. It's both. I mean, I just this means a lot to me because people are dying. Also, people are just suffering. Let's let's not even make it that dramatic. Let's

Speaker 1 just say how many people do that you know who are working in corporate who are not burned out, stressed out, struggling with work and life balance. And again, I'm not trying to catastrophize. I've taught over 2,000 execs.

Speaker 2 I see, yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 So for you, I see mental health pandemic that is really growing. I see it for sure.

Speaker 1 And again, it's not all about it, but when our you saw what happened when I fell apart. When my mind had a breakdown, I couldn't speak. So that was another example. It was a lot of stress at work, it was a lack of the right culture. I want to bring it back actually to culture for a second, see how we hop around, but I love it because it works. Culture fit, you said you don't actually agree with that. I heard something recently. Tell me how this lands, and I want to know your thoughts on it. Uh, instead of culture fit, how about culture ad? Meaning instead

Speaker 1 of fitting into this thing, like the metaphor of there's a party, okay? There's three people at the party, there's a vibe, then there's five people, different vibe, then there's ten. By the time there's twenty people, it's a different vibe. Everyone adds. So instead of us trying to like, everyone must be like this, which is literally an impossible task. It's how do you add to a culture so that the vibe is productive and whatever you want it to be? So, how does that land with you? Because I loved that.

Speaker 2 Yeah, being an eccentric, I'll take take you up one level. How about optimizing? Like, let's optimize our cultures. Like, yeah, we can keep adding and adding and adding, but I think optimizing is about more intentional additions and seeing, always looking for who is missing. And I'll give you an example. I'm actually working with a client and they did a disc profile. And it's a it's a smaller firm, they're about uh, I think 15. It's a law firm, legal law firm here in San Diego. And when I look at their profile, so disc has like four colors, right? There's like red, which is more like discussing.

Speaker 1 What's this? Tell people what disk is.

Speaker 2 It's it's a personality assessment, but also we do it for teams. So it's like if you have a team of 12 people, we can say, okay, out of these 12 people, who are more like so there's a type that loves tasks and details, right? And they're very like they love stability, they love security. And as you can imagine, at a law firm, we need those people who are like detail-oriented, right? And then there's a type who is like more like us, like dominant, fast, straightforward, like they just move very quickly.

Speaker 1 Also, big picture, right? The the person who can't be.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, versus executors. Then there's a type that is like loves relationship, like they just love relationships and connection, and then there's like the fun ones, right? Like you said, who bring aliveness. And when I looked at this profile, all of their employees they didn't have anybody in a fun square. So they had micromanagers, they had a lot of people who drove division, and they had a lot of executors who really need details, who needed a lot of like hand holding, a lot of instructions. There were some relationships, and and it's like, so when you look at a system, right? That's how I would hire. My

Speaker 2 next hire would be like, oh my god, we're not having any fun. Who is missing? Who is missing on our team? Sometimes it's the opposite. We're having too much fun, and there's nobody who will actually pay attention to the detail. Because we're not hiring for that.

Speaker 1 I love it. I love it. One of the biggest lessons I learned from my work with Zappos and delivering happiness was a lot of people hire based on culture, actually, but they don't fire based on culture who is missing and who needs to go. Yeah. Like I was once fired and it was the best. I mean, my ego didn't feel good, but she literally was like, I'm clipping your wings. You gotta go be a coach. And I was like, fuck, you're right. And I'm really glad. And I just wrote down also what you're saying is profound about having fun because remember, last year I finally got

Speaker 1 certified in an assessment tool, instinctive drives. I've done all these assessments through the years. Some part of me was like, I don't know. This one, you know what it showed me, and this is why I can lead it. I'm certified in it. Is that for me, if I'm actually not having fun, I do not do good work. That is not a nice to have feel good. That is literally my drive, my instinct, my intimity and innovation. I have to, so I have now asked myself before I do anything that's kind of boring, even like I have a spreadsheet for this podcast. I said, How do I

Speaker 1 make this fun? Because once I find a way to make the thing fun, I do it better, and I'm not the only one. There's this, it's very fascinating. So, for those actually who are interested, I'll post a link to this assessment. I never knew that before. I just thought I liked to have fun, and then I realized, no, no, I must. So if a team is not having fun and there are people like me on the team, those people on that team are not getting the best also of their people. What a shame, right?

Speaker 2 I know, I know. But it's like it happens all the time. So when you ask me about systems, I'm like, yeah, I think the biggest customization is like really knowing who works here and how do we create an environment where they can do their best work and like really loving each other? Because I feel like when we feel safe, we feel psychologically safe, we're creative, we can contribute, we feel like I belong here, like what I bring matters. And you and I had a lot of no's, even in the last six years. Like, because I feel like we are at the prime of our career. Um,

Speaker 2 we had a lot of no's. And how do you recover from a no? And how do you facilitate your life, right? How do you listen to the no? And hindsight 2020, of course, you look back and you're like, thank God you didn't hire me because like now I do like much better things. But at a time, it really fucks with your self-esteem and self-confidence, you know.

Speaker 1 Well, here's what you do in my world you develop the mantra, a no is a yes to something better, and you retrain your mind. Remember, we've been talking about this.

Speaker 3 I've had so much shit fall apart in the past four or five months that it was like, oh, I got the most highest paying client. Oh, and then I lost it, and they asked me to give them money back.

Speaker 1 And oh, I met a stoic, beautiful man. Oh. Oh no, he's a gaslighting narcissist.

Speaker 3 Oh, I was like, okay, you know what? If I hadn't had the mantra of a no is yes to something better, I swear to God, I would have gone completely insane.

Speaker 1 And yet I now literally have had so many no's that now when I get rejected from anyone or anything, I'm like, okay. I mean, I feel the fact that it's like, oh, and I'm like, something's better, something better is coming. And I honestly wish that for everyone because that took me years of pain and rejection. And honestly, that gives me a lot of freedom. But how do you teach that, right? Like, how do you teach people on a team who are getting a bunch of no's, right? No, you can't get a promotion, or no, you can't get more money, or no, you can't even do the

Speaker 1 thing that maybe you're best at. That's what people ask me a lot. So I'm curious like, how are you helping if you are working in that part? So you're helping with the culture, you're helping figure out who's missing, you're facilitating different workshops. What are you doing to like help the leaders actually deal with the fact that sometimes they can't help people in certain ways? How do you keep employees happy when maybe you gotta say no a lot of the time for whatever reason, right?

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. Well, it's it's a big question, right? Because as I said, part of culture, it has kind of like three elements that I deeply believe in. One is leadership alignment. Like, is our leadership team aligned on the actual vision that we have? Second part is that do we have systems and processes in place that would help us to reward, right? Or um manage those behaviors that we want to see. And the third part is do we have managers, right people in the right seats, and do they have the skills to manage that? So I keep thinking of clarity. Brennan Brown says it the best, clear

Speaker 2 is kind, and knowing you said something, right? When it's like when I have to say the thing and nobody else is willing to say it, I keep taking it, especially if you are a leader, right? To like what will serve the collective? Same with facilitation, I'll bring it back. Like when someone is going on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on. And sometimes you're like, if the point that this person is making, I think as a facilitator, right, we're always saying, is it serving the collective or is it serving just that individual? Because if it is serving

Speaker 2 the collective, I'm gonna entertain it for a while, but if it's not, I need to shut it down. And same with leaders, like when we have clarity, like, am I clear on what will serve the collective? And sometimes we have to be willing to sacrifice individuals for the sake of the team and the culture. It's it's almost like, you know, um, Native Americans do their sacrificing, but it's like intentional sacrificing. And because it's not serving the collective, it's not serving the group, it's not serving the growth. Uh, you had an experience where you called me last week and you said I'm gonna leave this training that

Speaker 2 I signed up for. It is not serving me and it's not serving the collective. So it's like, I don't know, am I answering your question? But that would be my response.

Speaker 1 No, you're answering a lot of things, or even if you're not answering the question, you're saying so many profound things that I'm taking notes. And actually, I'm gonna say one thing that helps me listen is actually when I write down some things that I'm hearing, because it's actually been proven that when we hear and see and write, this is neuroscience. Yeah, of course. Yeah, let's both hold up our eccentric notes. Oh, you wanna compare? Hold on, hold on. Okay, yeah. Oh, you're even drawing.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 No, I've been doing that my whole life, and again, also I've realized that's my genius. It helps, especially people like me, with like whether it's ADHD or whoever I am, doodling, drawing. So I wrote down three things. First of all, direct is kind. I've been saying that for years. So many people think, oh, I don't want to be rude. I'm like, it is actually so much kinder to stop being nice and to say the thing that needs to be said for someone's growth. The people I've coached in corporate who became better at just again, it doesn't mean you're an asshole. It it matters how you say

Speaker 1 something and delivery for sure. And timing, right? If someone in a group was having a really sad moment and started crying, would you start talking to them like, okay, no, you also need to read the space, listen, pay attention to body language, pay attention to tone. And I love what you said about serving the collective. To me, that's actually the definition of um one of the pillars of stoicism that I've been really kind of obsessed. That's gonna be a whole other episode, is justice. And what justice means is that love and care for all. And when you're in a group, it's not about only you, it's

Speaker 1 about you and the group. And you mentioned how do you, you know, sometimes you gotta interrupt someone, they are off on a freaking tangent. It has nothing to do, I think, the with the is this serving the group? And yet, as a coach, right, we do that, and we usually design that up front. So that's what I want to lead this to. I have found that designing things up front when I'm a facilitator really helps me do things like interrupt someone or shift gears. And while that would typically maybe be offensive, when I've said in advance, hey, I through this experience might interrupt you for you

Speaker 1 to help you. I'm telling you that in advance, right? So here's what I want to know if you could give the facilitators out there some, like, what are the main, I don't know, three to five things that you've learned as I would say a master facilitator that you would want not even leaders to know, because that's a whole other thing. Like leaders need to hire people like you to do what you do because frankly, leading a team is a different skill set than facilitating experiences. And I think hiring masters and experts is smart, but facilitators might be listening to this, right? People who are doing or

Speaker 1 trying to do what you do. What would you want to share with them about what has made you successful in your engagements? That, like, if you could have the world know as your gift, what are those things?

Speaker 2 Wow. Okay. Um, I think the first thing I always why I say it's custom design, why are we getting together? Go listen to Simon Sinek. Why? Tell Simon. Yeah. Like, why are we doing this meeting? Why are we having this offside? Why, why, why? And and like really digging deep into like what is the purpose? And not only just for me, but also for everybody who will attend, like, adults need to know why. They're not children who, like, because I said so, it's like they need you need to get their buy-in. That's the first one. The second part would be who should be invited, who will

Speaker 2 serve the group, and who will actually bring chaos, who should not be here. And I think that is a big problem because, again, we go back to being nice. Well, what will this person say if they're not invited? What would that mean for the rest of the team? We take care of everyone else, and we're forgetting what will serve this experience. So I think being very, very intentional with like who is part of this group, event, whatever that is, whether you're hosting a Thanksgiving dinner at home or you're facilitating a meeting at work, it's the same thing. We're getting a group of people together. So, why

Speaker 2 are we getting together? What do we want to get out of it? I think it's another important thing, right? Because, you know, as facilitators, our role is to keep moving the day forward and moving the team. We are learning things along the way, we're connecting the dots, but as a facilitator, we're also there. We have a purpose and an objective that we have to meet and we have to move the team along. So that would be the first one is intention. The second one is who is invited and who is not invited, and also why. And I think that's a hard one. And then the third

Speaker 2 thing- Sorry, I'm sorry, permission to interrupt.

Speaker 3 That just made me think of whenever I make a list of like who I'm inviting to a party. I think I'm gonna start making a list of who I'm not inviting and why. Ha ha ha ha. Yeah.

Speaker 1 But like there's a reason, right?

Speaker 2 Yeah, sorry, it's just that's No, I think it's I think it's a great interruption. But for you to be also intentional, is like, am I just inviting everyone for the sake of like, well, because it's like less work? But there's some people who will actually there'll be extra voices. You know how I said who's missing?

Speaker 1 Yeah, and also I don't want to be invited to meetings I don't need to be at. I actually think we assume that everyone wants to be invited. I I teach, like, hey, why don't you ask, hey, if there's a meeting that you like could be at, but you don't need, do you want the invite or do you not? And some would say, you know what? I want to feel like I've told my friends, probably if you invite me anywhere, I'm not going. So if it's gonna offend you, don't invite me. Or it does feel nice to be included, but if I say no, don't give me

Speaker 1 shit. It's the same thing. Some managers, maybe more on the, I'm gonna say micromanage-y side, if it's a younger team, want to be invited. Others are like, just give me an update. Don't assume, right? So I love what you're saying. Yeah, who's not invited? That's a gift to everybody.

Speaker 2 Why and why, right? So we're not like, it's not we're not biased, it's like guilt, obligation, people pleasing. It's like we're getting actually very clear, again, what will serve the collective. The third thing I would say, and you again mentioned it in the beginning, is like to have an agenda, to be prepared, to have an agenda, but then have the ability to let go of the agenda. Because and and I think that's where a lot of people struggle. And I I again I am a certified speaker for this peer-to-peer CEO group. Um, and I when I go and facilitate, where I see a lot of facilitators

Speaker 2 fail, is a really powerful, impactful conversation is happening. And often it takes a lot of time and planning and trust building to get to something that is real and like raw and authentic, and then they stop it because they have two more points to make on their agenda. And I'm like, dang, that was. I would rather you miss out on half of your agenda, but deliver the value. I always say, flow, follow the energy. Where is the energy flowing? What are people feeling like button, enthusiastic, and passionate about? It's like, yes, we have an objective, but we can also meet it in many different ways. And

Speaker 2 sometimes I'll say, you know what? We did not finish what we plan to finish. I'm willing to give two extra hours of my time to take you through this. I'll send you an email. But like, what was the juice that so often people just miss out on because they just keep moving forward. We have an agenda, we have things to cover.

Speaker 1 Oh my god, I could, yeah. I gotta have a whole episode about that, but I have to just say this. It to me, the word that came is also this. Even now, there have been a few times in our conversation where I could feel the sound was like, and I noticed it, and I thought, you know what? Fuck it. This conversation matters more than it being perfect. So, how many people are even afraid to facilitate something because you might mess up, you might fumble, you might blah blah whatever, but that's okay. I actually recently heard that perfectionism is a trauma response, which makes a lot of

Speaker 1 sense. I am a recovering perfectionist where for the longest time, if it couldn't be great, it was like, well, I don't want to know. Now again, you mess up, keep going. And that doesn't mean you don't try to do your best, right? Have the agenda, throw it out. And you know who did this masterfully? And I want to say I was in my Stanford uh compassion program recently, and there was a moment on the graduation weekend. And this is why I keep telling my mentor and now friend, she's the executive director, she was leading us in one of our kind of completion exercises. And it was

Speaker 1 a really beautiful exercise. And we were, we took a hundred people, we split us into three groups, and we had like an hour, and then we had to go back and join the group. And because there was a schedule, right? That's the other thing. As a facilitator, I have 60 minutes sometimes. I cannot go over. So if I'm running over, what do I skip? What do I do? How do I choose to be in the moment versus like we gotta be here? So we're in this one hour long thing, and it's clear that there are a few people who haven't had a chance to share. And

Speaker 1 she goes, Hey, here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna all go back to the main room. I'm gonna tell them I need 20 more minutes, then we're coming back and we're finishing. That was so masterful because that she knew, and some, and one of those people I think hadn't even spoken the whole time. So giving that person and all of us a chance to just complete something that was honestly more important than sticking to the time, yeah, that was one of the most simple. She didn't even think she did anything profound. Because but for that person it was profound, and for me, seeing that, I thought,

Speaker 1 wow, this human values this moment of connection and love or appreciate. It was a gratitude exercise too. Like that was not the thing to cut. But how many people would have said, oh shit, we're behind time, we gotta go, we gotta get. I cut slides when I need to, not because I want to, because it makes more sense to do.

Speaker 2 You have to make that call, right? You have to make that call in the facilitation. And you're touching on another really cool point that from a design perspective, how do we because I always believe that every voice needs to be heard in the system, right? We're going back to systems, and how do we design that some people love to hear themselves talk? Like, you know, oh, I don't know about that. I don't know what I like to say, and then other people feel more comfortable in small groups, and then other people need an opportunity to maybe voice their perspective anonymously, and then someone likes to write

Speaker 2 it, and then so when I design, I'm always thinking of like, okay, I'm gonna have different personality types in the room, and how do I design different opportunities to present, to do small group, to do maybe a little bit anonymous, a little bit in a chat, a little bit of like maybe pre-work. Again, some people love being put on the spot, others need time to think and process. So I feel like that is another element of masterful facilitation is when you are kind of like keeping in mind that my objective, and I and I say that, like you said, it from the get-go in a designing

Speaker 2 of a session that uh it's important for every voice to be heard today. And there will be opportunities to speak up, there will be opportunities to contribute anonymously or in small breakout groups. But I it's important to have every voice heard for the system.

Speaker 1 I if you can't see what I'm doing, I'm just bowing down to what you did because literally we're like, I know we're wrapping up soon, and I feel like you just brought it home so beautifully because that's what I've come to recently as well, is that the reason that my own courses started getting super high scores is because I somehow get everyone involved, even because think of how nice it feels to be seen. We all at the end of the day just want to be seen, and some people are not like us. It is not easy for them. Like you and I are usually the people

Speaker 1 in the group who it's it's it's actually uncomfortable when I can't share. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But tell me if you agree. As a facilitator, it's great. I'm leading as a it's harder for me to be a student than the teacher now because I'm constantly having to hold back because I'm aware that I don't want to take all the space. I know. And yet I I even said that to Monica at Stanford. I said, I just want to know how do you feel? Like, do you feel like I'm over participating? And she goes, first of all, this was so meaningful. She goes, the fact that you're even

Speaker 1 asking me about your impact is really cool. And no, you need to share. People do need to share their opinion, their wisdom without worry, and start paying attention, start listening. If you're looking, even on Zoom, I can see if there's someone who's been hijacking the course, which by the way, is then my job to figure out how to deal with it. You can see the other faces are kind of like, oh God, here we go, right? So the point is there's some people who talk a lot, there's others who don't say much at all. It's like the love languages I say. Not everyone needs the same

Speaker 1 thing. Someone might want you to email them and say, hey, thanks so much for that work you did. Here's a gift card. Go get yourself something. Someone might want to shout out at the company meeting for someone that would make them so uncomfortable. So that's actually something that people have liked. I realized why are we not applying like the love language concept to how we are with our teams? We don't audio, right?

Speaker 2 Different people need different things. And yes, I will add one more thing. And if you are a team leader, be aware of your power. I often see leaders dominate this space. And I actually now would have, because again, part of the design, I would have a call with them and I would say, hey, I think it's important for people to hear from you. I think your perspective is relevant and be mindful of how much space you take. Because there's a bandwagon effect, there's like, you just have a lot of power, and we just have to be aware of it.

Speaker 1 I love it. The way I make that funny is at the beginning of every class, I've been saying, All right, this is gonna be an interactive space. I want to hear from everyone. Uh, I will call on people. If you don't want to be called on, tell me, and then I'll call on you first because get out of your comfort zone. And then everyone laughs, and yeah, it's both, right? I don't like to force people to do anything. In fact, tell me if you agree with this. I like people who are quiet and more reserved. Honestly, that balances my energy. And sometimes I am like that.

Speaker 1 That's not my main way to be. And I think in our society, we do seem to value the like loud, charismatic person more than the quiet, stoic one sometimes. And I actually think both are so beautiful. And once everyone starts feeling valued on a team, uh, appreciated, even different leaders, not all leaders are loud. You can be a very quiet, amazing leader. But it's just anyway, this is why your work is so profound. And I want to, I want people to also know how to uh contact you and and also who are you looking for? Like, who do you love to work with right now that

Speaker 1 would because I always say, like, it's important to have the right clients, it's important to have the right people you're hiring. So, what do you want to work on and how can people connect you? I'll put links and all that, but say some about before we go there.

Speaker 2 I'm really distracted by one object on my desk. And I wanted to ask you, as an Eastern European woman, when I show you this, what do you think of?

Speaker 3 Okay, first of all, you should not have shown me an object that's phallic while I drank a sip of tea. Because I almost choked.

Speaker 1 Okay, okay, so the first thing I saw was a bowling pin. When the matroska. Okay, because you said Eastern European now, the shape of it is like those you're eating, okay, a chicken, a bone.

Speaker 2 So that's what I thought. It was a well, actually, it's a baseball bat that it's just like a soft it that I have, but it's like it's been distracting me. But I was I was 100% confident that if I showed it to you, the Moldovian part of you would be like, it's a chicken leg.

Speaker 1 Well, yeah, I saw the chicken leg, but I'm sorry. I think because I was not expecting that uh veer, and I was drinking tea, and it was honestly, I always think everything might be a penis. So that might have been the most inappropriate thing to say.

Speaker 2 Especially speaking to a lesbian. Especially not have a penis on my desk in the middle of a day.

Speaker 1 Honestly, I could see you wanting to squeeze it just as a it's fun. Uh, and also for those not seeing this, that's probably really funny to see what just happened. But the point is, uh, I appreciate that you wanted to have a funny moment, but you weren't even trying to make funny. That's the other thing. You just being you is so awesome. And that's also what I want to say that one of the reasons I wanted specifically to Have you as one of my first guests is you are very you. You are you. Like that's it. I've also been told, probably my biggest consistent compliment was

Speaker 1 just like, you are just so you, you've always just been you. And it's hard sometimes to be you in a world that doesn't facilitate that as the lesson. So I appreciate that even you were just you, you completely instead of taking a chance to market yourself, was like, let me show you a weird baseball thing that uh will make you laugh.

Speaker 2 And yeah, when was the last time you laughed and spit out tea?

Speaker 3 I mean, honestly, it wasn't that long ago, but the point is I enjoyed it.

Speaker 2 Okay, it happens, it happens, it happens. Well, um, I actually I want to add thank you for the compliment because this does not come easy to me. And you know that when you talked about the Barbie woman, I spent a long time not being me, and I worked really hard to embrace and be me and be my eccentric self and and be proud of who I am and speak about the work that I do. So thank you for seeing that in me. Because I know I feel like even when I look at Baby Switlan and you have to post my favorite picture of Baby Switlan on

Speaker 2 the beach, like you're exactly you, like literally the same exact person, same sass, same personality, where that wasn't my case. I really played into the stereotype of being a very feminine woman with the husband, children, and the million-dollar house and the suburbs. I did all of that in my 20s and early 30s, and then yeah, it's like full permission to be like, that's actually not who I am. Who I am is I'm gay and I am loud and I am I live in California and I do what I love and I work with everybody. But honestly, who do I work with? People who just see the

Speaker 2 potential of their team not being actualized. They're like, you know what? Sometimes it would be a marketing team, sometimes it would be a leadership team, sometimes it would be a couple of employees who would say, I want to change culture that we have. And I think we have a potential, but we have some systems in place that maybe don't allow for that. I don't know. I just want to work with people. I also have this mantra for, you know, you and I, I love that about you with all your mantras. I want to have fun. I want to work with like cool, fun, progressive companies who

Speaker 2 might have created a little bit of maybe dysfunctional toxic culture, not by intention, but because they have not been intentional with it. They have a lot of young leaders, they have a lot of managers who were promoted as individual contributors. They don't really have the skills to manage teams, and they have allowed maybe some behaviors that are toxic behaviors to foster. And, but they're like, you know what? We have this opportunity to build an amazing culture. And let's have Anya come in. And again, I have a group of consultants, and you're one of them, that will design really cool, rad team building days, and we'll redefine

Speaker 2 our culture and build in some systems that will help us to sustain it.

Speaker 1 Hell yeah. And guess what? Watch us wrap this up by actually using everything we talked about because we do have a deadline because you have a hard stop at uh noon. So here's what I want to say. Uh, first of all, thank you. That was actually a little bit different uh in terms of the conversation I thought we'd have, but it was, I think, perfect because that's the beauty of listening and being in the moment, dancing with life, right? Um I want to check in on the listener. How was that? How is it to follow a fast-paced conversation of two humans speaking in their own way?

Speaker 1 However, our tone, however, our accent, however, our flow, however, also, how is it like to listen to people who actually you feel really know each other and you don't, right? Have you ever been at a party and you come in and you can tell that you're kind of like you don't know the whole group, right? And it's like, did you feel included? Did you notice that? Oh, you you had more curiosity. So this next week, or however many days before you tune into the next episode, that's gonna be amazing. Uh, notice that, continue to do what you've been doing, listen masterfully first to you. Are you

Speaker 1 being authentic? Because guess what? That Barbie woman is beautiful. And when I saw the Barbie movie, I fell in love with it. Because also, we've been in some weird way saying that that's because that's the only thing we've been presented with, somehow not good. Oh my god, all beauty is valid as long as you are who you are and you can change, that's beautiful. So I also want to acknowledge that because you were gorgeous then, you were gorgeous now on many levels, but now you're more you, and that is so cool and it's motivating for anyone else who's kind of like but but I'm not this

Speaker 1 other person anymore. And it's like, okay, can you give yourself permission to listen to that voice? I think you've hopefully well you've done that for me, but hopefully whoever's listening can see you and be like, Whoa, she gave herself permission, and like you seem a lot happier now, you seem a lot more successful and fulfilled to me, and that's really fucking beautiful. So thanks.

Speaker 2 But also the biggest, thank you. The biggest regret of the dying is to not live an authentic life. Yeah, that's like the biggest regret. It's like honestly, just be you because people are gonna judge you anyway, yeah, people are gonna dislike you anyway, people are gonna criticize you anyway. At least I get to do whatever the hell I want with my life, and and that's powerful, and that's powerful.

Speaker 1 Plus, I think at the end of the day, no one's actually thinking about us because everyone's obsessed about themselves. A. And B, uh, I had something else, but who cares? It's probably not important. Uh, wait, no, let me pause and see because it felt profound. Although I often think I have a profound thing. Maybe not. All right, my dear. Thank you.

Speaker 2 Can I come back next December of 2024 and we do a recap on our life, on our journey, on our clients, on ourselves? I wanna. I I had so much fun. Thank you for having me. And I'm like, can we make this an annual event? Uh, thank you, A, for asking for what you want.

Speaker 1 I love it. Yes, and you actually gave another little facilitation listening tool at the end. Wrap it up with a takeaway and some sort of plan moving forward, right? Accountability. How cool is it? Because you just showed me that like this was meaningful enough to where you wanna do more of it and follow up. So do it again. See, that's a yes. My favorite word is no, but that is a clear yes, and you're awesome. Okay, one minute and thirteen seconds. I mean minutes, one hour and thirteen minutes. I love it, my perfect by so quickly.

Speaker 2 Thanks for having me. I love you. Bye.

Speaker 3 All right.